The Worm: Beer writer earns Time dissent award
Alan Moen had blasted story on Glenn Beck
Monday, December 28, 2009
Entiat freelance writer Alan Moen’s letter to Time magazine was named as the magazine’s 2009 “Dissent of the Year.”
Speaking out: Take that, Glenn Beck.
Alan Moen — the Entiat beer judge, winemaker, editor and prolific freelance writer — slapped the conservative radio-TV commentator back hard in September when he compared Beck to a terrorist in a letter to Time magazine. That concisely-worded jab was named one of the publication’s top letters of 2009 and labeled “Dissent of the Year” in the current issue — which features Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke as Person of the Year.
Earlier that month, Time had run a multi-page spread on Beck. In his letter, Moen, 61, said, “Running a cover story on Glenn Beck is the equivalent of giving a terrorist publicity for setting off a bomb. Beck has made himself rich off people’s fears without making the slightest constructive comment on national issues. He’s a TV evangelist who makes altar calls and then drives away in his Cadillac.”
The writer said his many letters to magazine and newspaper editors have earned him few honors, but he has won more than a dozen awards from the American Guild of Beer Writers and was named first runner-up Beer Writer of the Year in 1999. Nice work, if you can get it.
Time never contacted Moen about the letter honor, however. “I guess they consider that acknowledging my ‘dissent of the year’ in print is honor enough,” he said.
Unheralded memorial: Last week, stone sculptor Ben Barke was sweeping snow off the downtown Leavenworth memorial for slain state Trooper James Saunders when he realized, once again, that the monument had never had an official dedication.
Barke built the memorial — basalt columns surrounding an inscribed bench — in 2001 on an overlook above the Wenatchee River just across the street from Gustav’s, the landmark downtown restaurant. Construction of the monument came about 18 months after the state trooper, a former Leavenworth resident, was gunned down in Yakima during a routine traffic stop. His funeral was attended by more than 1,000 law enforcement officers. The killer was convicted and sentenced to life without parole. The 10th anniversary of Saunders death was Oct. 7.
“It’s a forgotten memorial, and most people don’t even know it’s there,” said Barke. “It’s a nice place to sit and look at the scenery, but it’s sad that it’s never gotten any real (official) attention.”
Can’t see the forest for the trees: Final figures aren’t tallied yet, but it seems as if this year’s slumping economy may have influenced Christmas tree buying habits, although we’re not completely sure how. The few facts we’ve found aren’t definitive, so trend-watchers will have to reach their own conclusions.
Here’s what we know:
Robin DeMario, spokeswoman for the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest, reported last week that Christmas tree permits — that’s the ones that cost only $5 — had reached a total this year of $31,000, up from last year’s $29,000. That’s about 6,200 permits sold in 2009 for trees on local national forest lands.
In contrast, overall sales of you-pick trees at Shelton’s Tree Farm in Cashmere may be down slightly from previous years, owner Bob Shelton reported two weeks ago, but strong traditions of families to pick their own trees were keeping the customers, um, flocking in.
And then there’s this: only one temporary business license was issued this year in Wenatchee for a seasonal Christmas tree lot. That’s actually an increase over last year, when none were issued.
In 2008, 28.2 million real Christmas trees were sold across the U.S., according to the National Christmas Tree Association, for a total of over $1 billion in sales. About 11 million fake trees were sold.
This week’s Worm was compiled by reporter Mike Irwin. Have a tip? E-mail it to newsroom@wenatcheeworld.com
Comments
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Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
Let's take Moen's "concisely-worded jab" and substitute a different name. “Running a cover story on Al Gore is the equivalent of giving a terrorist publicity for setting off a bomb. Gore has made himself rich off people’s fears without making the slightest constructive comment on national issues. He’s a TV evangelist who makes altar calls and then drives away in his Cadillac.”
Yup. Fits Gore to a "T". Thanks Moen.
December 28, 2009 at 11:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lurker_berserker (Lurker Berserker) says...
Except Gore uses this little tool called science, Martin. Good luck blindly facing the future, we'll see how long ignorance works out for you.
December 28, 2009 at 11:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tim (Tim Lamb) says...
Al Moen is a militant liberal who's steel-trap mind is closed hard and rusted shut. People like Glen Beck are trying to remind people of a time when moral vaues meant something; and how much better off we were in THAT America.
Al Moen, like many of the liberal community, has no concept of what free speech really means.
December 28, 2009 at 11:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"Except Gore uses this little tool called science, Martin."
Zip...right over your head as usual. What Gore does is make billions off of several carbon-credit investment firms that he has started or has partnered. He flies in private jet aircraft, currently the G650. He has multiple homes: a 10,000-square-foot, 20-room, eight-bathroom home in Nashville, exceeding the carbon footprint of a small strip mall, and a 4,000-square-foot home in Arlington, Va. He also has a third home in Carthage, Tennessee. He rides in SUVs.
As executor of his family's trust, over the years Gore has controlled hundreds of thousands of dollars in Oxy stock. Oxy has been mired in controversy over oil drilling in ecologically sensitive areas. It was only after intense embarrassment that he forced the shut down of a zinc mine on his property from which he recieved royalties, after railing against the mining industry for years. Shall I go on?
Gore preaches a lifestyle that even he doesn't believe in, and drives away in his cadillac laughing all the way to the bank.
We'll save the scientific argument for other threads. Keep drinking the purple kool-aid, bubba.
December 28, 2009 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
LOL! I have to agree with Martin on that one. Al Gore is a politician as well as an opportunist. What he isn't is a dedicated environmentalist based on personal conviction and principal. Gore will take any side that benefits his purpose at any given point in time--especially when he is rewarded with a campaign contribution. Big Al the Puffer is a fraud as are most all other politicians. It goes with the territory I guess. To wit, 'the politics of hope and change' now read 'business as usual'.
December 28, 2009 at 6:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
As for Glen Beck, any doofus that actually believes that a king dwelt in the Land of Moron several centuries ago must be one himself.
December 28, 2009 at 6:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"Al Moen is a militant liberal who's steel-trap mind is closed hard and rusted shut."
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You reach that conclusion based on only the evidence in this article? How do you discern any militancy there? Or is "militant" just a word you use because you think it sounds good, without any regard for what it actually means? No wonder you like Beck.
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"People like Glen Beck are trying to remind people of a time when moral vaues meant something; and how much better off we were in THAT America."
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Yeah, if only we could just reinstate slavery, restrict the vote to wealthy white males, and burn women at the stake when the weather gets bad."
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"Al Moen, like many of the liberal community, has no concept of what free speech really means."
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Partly true. Many Americans, both liberals and conservatives, and including yourself, have no idea what freedom of speech really means. It does not mean that people are not allowed to criticize other people (as Moen's letter does - and you seem to think is somehow a violation of free speech). What freedom of speech means is that the government (mostly) can't prohibit/prosecute people for saying things the government doesn't like.
Freedom of speech means that both Glen Beck and Alan Moen (and you and I) can voice their opinions without fear of prosecution.
December 28, 2009 at 8:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ShadowCaster (Curtis Killroy) says...
"Yeah, if only we could just reinstate slavery, restrict the vote to wealthy white males, and burn women at the stake when the weather gets bad."" -Norm
(I hope you don't mind if I modify one of your own questions from above:) How do you discern that Glenn Beck supports anything you've listed in your strawman statement above? Answer: you can't. Beck's support of freedom and liberty against tyranny in no way suggests that he supports slavery, voting restrictions or burning women at the stake, as you've falsely implied.
"Partly true. Many Americans, both liberals and conservatives, and including yourself, have no idea what freedom of speech really means." -Norm
While I agree with most of your last paragraph, it's not true, generally speaking, that "both liberals and conservatives" misunderstand freedom of speech. Conservatives have never argued in favor of limiting the freedom of political speech----as IS true of leftists, and has been a reoccurring theme throughout leftists history. Pol Pot did it, as did Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and presently, the guy that Obama placed at the head of the FCC, which is on record saying that the Fairness doctrine, (an Orwellian double-speak title for a doctrine that would virtually eliminate the free speech of the lefts political opponents), doesn't go far enough.
Conservatives don't have ambitions in any way comparable to the Democrats [un]Fairness Doctrine. While conservatives are content not to partake of leftist news outlets, voting with their feet, eyes and ears, many on the left actually want to use the power of the government to shut their political opponents up.
December 28, 2009 at 11:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ShadowCaster (Curtis Killroy) says...
"many on the left actually want to use the power of the government to shut their political opponents up." -ShadowCaster(myself from above)
Another modern example is what Hugo Chavez has done to demolish the free press in Venezuela, which Obama's FCC chairman, (or whatever his title is), is a huge fan of.
December 28, 2009 at 11:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tim (Tim Lamb) says...
Norm said: "You reach that conclusion based on only the evidence in this article? How do you discern any militancy there? Or is "militant" just a word you use because you think it sounds good, without any regard for what it actually means?"
Ever on the attack, eh, Norm?
Moen's polotics have been well stated around the valley for many years. I believe he was in the streets to boo and harrass Oliver North a while back. I've never known Mr Moen to be a man of dialogue, no questions no compromise.
What do you think militant means Norm? I think it just means to engage the opposition aggressively, a fitting term for many of us here.
I may attack what you say Norm, but I've never denied your right to say it so your attack on me is unfounded.
Liberals idea of freedom seems to be them doing whatever they please and me not objecting. There are many things I object to but opinions aren't one of them.
December 28, 2009 at 11:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tim (Tim Lamb) says...
Mavulous said: "As for Glen Beck, any doofus that actually believes that a king dwelt in the Land of Moron several centuries ago must be one himself. "
Mavulous, I'm supprised at you. This kind of attack is not like you.
I'm not supporting Mormonism, but this was not constructive.
December 28, 2009 at 11:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"How do you discern that Glenn Beck supports anything you've listed in your strawman statement above? Answer: you can't."
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You're right: I can't. That's why I don't. I was rebutting the proposition that our country has become less moral than it once was by pointing out how our morality has dramatically improved (no more slavery or legalized discrimination in terms of voting and other civil rights for women and minorities, greater respect for due process of law, and so on), in ways that have significant effects on people's lives. Glen Beck and his followers are wrong to state that America is becoming less moral rather than more moral - even by their own standards.
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"Conservatives have never argued in favor of limiting the freedom of political speech"
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Do I need to google "free speech zones", examples of what happens when somebody wears a t-shirt with a liberal slogan to a Bush speaking event and so on, or do you still remember those things? Ever heard of Pinochet, the Argentine junta, the Guatemalan junta, the Somozas, the Duvaliers, Ferdinand Marcos, Mussolini, and many others - including Hitler? Do you really think that people who want to invoke Sharia law (I'm talking about the real thing, here - Osama, the Iranians and similar crazies) are Liberal? Seriously?
"Conservatism" isn't the synonym for sugar and spice and every thing nice that you assume it is - like anything else, it can have a dark side.
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"leftists, and has been a reoccurring theme throughout leftists history. Pol Pot did it, as did Stalin, Mao, Hitler,"
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Sorry, Charlie: Hitler's one of yours, as are the other fools I listed above. Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao were leftist murderers. You see, there's another axis on the political graph besides left<-->right; it's the authoritarian<--->libertarian axis. Some right wingers and some left wingers have been and are authoritarian (ie. murderers and oppressors like Stalin and Hitler). You're being less than honest with yourself if you fail to recognize that fact.
December 29, 2009 at 12:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"I believe he (Moen)was in the streets to boo and harrass Oliver North a while back"
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Good for him. Oliver North should be serving a life sentence for arming and funding a terrorist organization in direct and unequivocal violation of US and international law.
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A militant is somebody who fights; who uses physical violence rather than words to accomplish his goals.
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You (Tim) said: "Al Moen, like many of the liberal community, has no concept of what free speech really means"
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On what grounds do you make that assertion with regards to Mr. Moen?
(as I said previously, it is true that "many of the liberal community" - as well as many of the "conservative community" - in other words, many people in general -don't understand what freedom of speech means.)
December 29, 2009 at 12:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ShadowCaster (Curtis Killroy) says...
"Mussolini, and many others - including Hitler?"
I'm not familiar with the intimate details of some of those regimes, but Mussolini and Hitler were both fascists, which relative to the modern American political spectrum are on the far left. (Fascism being command economies just like socialism but with private ownership, which doesn't count for much because private property is still controlled by the government. The difference is a technicality.)
Communism is on the far left, with socialism a bit to the right, then fascism, and the American Constitution and Bill of Rights is way off on the other side of the scale from all three.
I suspect that if we were to examine the other regimes you've listed we'd find that they are also Left by modern standards. Did Pinochet support decentralized government, freedom and liberty? No.
You do have a point about Sharia law to the extent that many conservatives are religious, (as are most on the left, I might add), and a minority of them do support using the power of the government to proselytize their religion in schools and courthouses, but aside from that minority, Sharia has perhaps more similarities with the American Left, which may be why leftist nations, unlike the right, are so accepting of the spread of Sharia in Europe, Canada and increasingly in America.
Alcohol is forbidden under Sharia; in America, it's the left that is in the process of forbidding smoking.
Under Sharia it is required that you dress a certain way; here, it's the left that has mandated people wear bicycle helmets.
Through various means, Sharia discourages and punishes non Islamic faiths, in the west, it's the left that tries to punish blasphemers of the cult of global warming even while ridiculing and attacking other faiths.
Sharia governments don't allow blasphemy, which is a form of free speech; in America, it's the left that wants to use the force of government to silence political dissent. Also, we learned from climate gate that the left has efforted to corrupt the scientific peer review process in order to support their continued funding and political aims.
Sharia is a system of intrusive regulations controlling virtually every aspect of life, including personal decisions. In America it is the left that is constantly promulgating intrusive regulations, including bans on trans fats, smoking, etc.
December 29, 2009 at 1:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ShadowCaster (Curtis Killroy) says...
"Sorry, Charlie: Hitler's one of yours." -Norm
There's nothing about Hitler that is remotely similar to the American right. It was Stalin that labeled Hitler as right-wing because Hitler supported private property, but private property the use of which was dictated by the government.
That's left, not right. Examine the evidence: it wasn't Bush that nationalized most of the American auto industry, it was Obama. It's Obama, Reid and Pelosi that want to nationalize the insurance and health. It's the left that wants to dictate compensation.
Looking at it from a historical perspective, it was the American left, Progressives, that prior to WWII were very vocal in their admiration of Hitler and Mussolini.
I'm going to bed, but I could go on.
Just because the Progressive movement later regretted their support of Hitler and Mussolini and adopted Stalin's description of them both as right wingers doesn't make a sound argument.
December 29, 2009 at 1:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ShadowCaster (Curtis Killroy) says...
"A militant is somebody who fights; who uses physical violence rather than words to accomplish his goals." -Norm
That's one meaning, but according to my dictionary it also means:
"Combative, esp. in the service of a cause [a militant civil-rights activist]"
December 29, 2009 at 1:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"Did Pinochet support decentralized government, freedom and liberty? No."
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Pinochet overthrew the socialist Salvador Allende who was democratically elected as president of Chile. Your error here is that you're conflating the right-left spectrum with the authoritarian-libertarian spectrum.
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Look how far you have to stretch, spin, and torture the facts to make them fit your laughably inaccurate description of the left-right spectrum:
"Under Sharia it is required that you dress a certain way; here, it's the left that has mandated people wear bicycle helmets."
Come on. You're seriously arguing that a thong and pasties is a conservative outfit while a burqa is a liberal outfit. Its beyond ridiculous. Fundamentalist Islam is perhaps the most perfect example of a conservative attitude that exists anywhere, in any context. And this:
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" in America, it's the left that wants to use the force of government to silence political dissent"
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Martin Luther King was a conservative? The anti-Vietnam War hippies were conservatives? J Edgar Hoover was a liberal? Come on, don't you have any serious arguments?
December 29, 2009 at 2:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"...it wasn't Bush that nationalized most of the American auto industry, it was Obama. It's Obama, Reid and Pelosi that want to nationalize the insurance and health."
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Words have meanings. The word "nationalize" does not mean what your radio tells you it means.
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"Looking at it from a historical perspective, it was the American left, Progressives, that prior to WWII were very vocal in their admiration of Hitler and Mussolini."
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Have a good time backing up that claim with some evidence.
December 29, 2009 at 3:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
" in America, it's the left that wants to use the force of government to silence political dissent"
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Read about COINTELPRO here:
http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointel...
and here:
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/coint...
December 29, 2009 at 3:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>Mavulous, I'm supprised at you. This kind of attack is not like you.
I'm not supporting Mormonism, but this was not constructive.<
Tim, certain belief systems are not constructive either. Any belief system that extols family values and then encourages families to banish family members from both their immediate family and the church family for a variety of absurd reasons should be exposed for what it is. Sometimes the truth is a great stumbling block to those who have devoted their life to a faith that will abruptly abandon them if they refuse to conform. Whenever faith is driven by the fear of losing everything and everyone you hold dear in this life as well as the life yet to come--read earthly and celestial family--then that faith is downright destructive and highly dangerous to anyone foolish enough to embrace it. Those born into such a surreal fantasy of deception have a valid excuse--Glenn Beck does not.
December 29, 2009 at 11:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
Oh, and Tim, one last thought regarding the above: I love to bash the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Paul Krugman, David Broder, Emperor Obama and George the Shrub every chance I get whenever they give me ample opportunity. I guess you could say I'm an 'equal opportunity basher', lol!
December 29, 2009 at 11:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Resident (Resi Dent) says...
Glenn Beck is a hypocrite. For example, a little over a year ago when he needed health care and got it, he ranted for days about how the system needed to be overhauled and that the government needed to step in. He even advocated for everyone to have some sort of coverage. Now he rails against any sort of reform because the left has control of the government. It's sad. A good idea from the left is bashed even if it's the same idea he espoused previously on the right.
December 29, 2009 at 11:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
Resident, I'd like to read all about that. Do you have a link to support your assertion? Thanks.
December 29, 2009 at 11:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
Here ya go, mav: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu...
December 29, 2009 at 11:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tim (Tim Lamb) says...
Norm, most of what I know of Moen is combatitive. I have never seen or heard him remark in any rational debate. I believe he would rather silence his opponants than debate them and that is where I get my opinion.
Regardless of how you feel about some ones politics, if you interfere with their right to speak you are hampering free speach. That is what Al Moen represents to me.
Ok Mav, I really did think you were above it.
Conservitives oppose ideals; liberals oppose people.
Alot of people who wish everyone had free health care oppose this reform bill. This bill has the potential to do great harm to the nations economy and that hurts first those this bill was intended to help.
December 29, 2009 at 12:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
Shows how little I know about Beck. Apparently he had some hemorrhoids removed two years ago, which can be a very painful procedure with a painful recovery--especially if they are prolapsed and become infected. Net, net, he had a bad experience with the anesthetic they used during surgery and since he had been a drug user/abuser at one time, he did not come away with a very positive opinion of the care he received. He was particularly critical of the hospital where he received treatment and the poor service he received trying to be re-admitted a couple hours after he elected to go home against his doctor's advice.
I don't see where he hypocritically advocated health care reform as a result of his negative experience and then changed his position 18 months after the fact. Basically, he was highly critical of his hospital's poor re-admittance procedures. Guys like Beck that have been previously addicted to drugs and alcohol are very difficult to treat when it comes to pain during surgery and don't kid yourself, the surgery he had may come across as funny, but it can be excruciating.
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/arti...
December 29, 2009 at 1:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>Ok Mav, I really did think you were above it.<
Tim, one man's pedestal is another man's footstool in very much the same way that one man's ceiling is another man's floor. As for myself, I'm content to inhabit the crawl space and play with with the crickets and cooties. Happy New Year! ;-)
December 29, 2009 at 1:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Resident (Resi Dent) says...
"Conservitives oppose ideals; liberals oppose people."
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Patently false. That's a generalization you make, and both parties have moments when they do both.
December 29, 2009 at 1:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"I don't see where he hypocritically advocated health care reform as a result of his negative experience and then changed his position 18 months after the fact."
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Watch the Daily Show clip I linked - it shows Beck talking about how horrible our health care system is when he had to seek care, then, 16 months later repeatedly asserting that our system is the best in the world.
December 29, 2009 at 2:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"Conservitives oppose ideals; liberals oppose people."
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At least 90% of the arguments I've seen against the idea of AGW don't even discuss the science; they're just based on what a big fat hypocrite Al Gore is (claimed to be).
December 29, 2009 at 2:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
g (Fiona Merkle) says...
"libera"l and "conservative" are arbitrary, and therefore meaningless labels; as are most labels that attempt to define large numbers of people. I personally have characteristics that could fit both labels, and so what? Could we have a thoughtful, civil fact-based discussion about issues that matter? Please?
To dismiss an issue like climate change, that has the potential to end many species, including our own, because it's a "liberal" issue, or national debt as a "conservative" issue, is just foolish sparring, and can't hope to seriously address the real problems posed. If you want to effectively use the power given you by the Constitution, debate the facts; the labels are meaningless.
More and more I think we need to get back to sober, open-minded (expressed as, "Of course, I could be wrong..."), responsible participation in the national conversation; this wrangling and name-calling is more fit for a schoolyard, and meanwhile, the power brokers are organized and focused, making the decisions while the people squabble.
December 29, 2009 at 3:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
Excellent points, Fiona.
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December 29, 2009 at 4:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
Norm, the problem with the Daily Show is that Jon Stuart is all about sound bytes and bits and pieces assembled in such a way as to make a "ratings approved" comedy show. The result is creative and funny, but it isn't necessarily honest or accurate. I watched your link all the way through and also listened to "Beck from the Dead" on youtube which was seven or eight minutes long. Stuart took excerpts from "Beck from the Dead" and had some fun at Beck's expense at the link you posted. Like I said, the result was creative and funny, but not very accurate. I also read Beck's statement on his website--my link posted above--and then I listened to Beck's program statement at the following link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eZ2HA...
My conclusion is that Beck is an attention whore, just like Jon Stuart, Rush Limbaugh and all the rest of the gang, but what I didn't see is that he changed his position on health care in a hypocritical way. My sense of it remains that he had a very bad post-op experience based on a previous drug addiction history that gave him a very high resistance threshold to pain killers. He never should have left the hospital against his doctor's advice so he basically asked for all of the difficulties he encountered when he tried to get re-admitted two hours after he left the hospital.
December 29, 2009 at 4:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
" The result is creative and funny, but it isn't necessarily honest or accurate."
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He generally does a far better job than most who hold themselves out as serious journalists.
"I also read Beck's statement on his website--my link posted above"
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Web sites have a tendency to be edited when the webmaster changes his point of view.
December 29, 2009 at 5:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>Web sites have a tendency to be edited when the webmaster changes his point of view.<
Then there should be some evidence of those changes. With so many critical eyes reading everything you have to say whenever you say it, Beck critics should be able to offer some concrete evidence of those changes. Are there any credible accusations to that effect outside of Jon Stuart's comedy central lampoon?
December 29, 2009 at 6:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"Beck critics should be able to offer some concrete evidence of those changes"
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I'm not alleging a specific incident of changing previous website posts here - what I'm saying is that they are not a reliable source because of the possibility of such changes. What I'm alleging is simply what Beck himself said, as shown in the video clips: first, he said our HC system sucks, and later he said its the best in the world.
December 29, 2009 at 8:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tim (Tim Lamb) says...
"Conservitives oppose ideals; liberals oppose people."
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Liberal says: "Program A is good"
Conservitive says: "We don't need program A."
Liberal says: "You are an ignorant boob!"
Pretty much the pattern for dialogue around here.
December 29, 2009 at 8:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Resident (Resi Dent) says...
Labeling and generalizing again. I've seen the same happen when Conservatives post as well. It's a bipartisan failure.
December 29, 2009 at 9:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"Pretty much the pattern for dialogue around here."
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I post here quite often, Tim. Find an example of a discussion I've been in that fits that pattern. Or admit that your pattern is mistaken.
December 30, 2009 at 2:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tim (Tim Lamb) says...
Norm said: "I post here quite often, Tim. Find an example of a discussion I've been in that fits that pattern. Or admit that your pattern is mistaken."
Translation: "You're an ignorant boob."
I rest my case!
December 30, 2009 at 7:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tim (Tim Lamb) says...
See the pattern Norm? I make a general statement and you make it personal to me.
December 30, 2009 at 7:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
artmann (Art Mann) says...
Tim, his whole purpose is just to get back at Wenatchee because everyone used to make fun of him in High School here. He thinks disrupting the boards here with moronic posts (he thinks are arguments) will stake his revenge.
December 30, 2009 at 8:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
Poor translation, Tim. The pattern there was:
Conservative: Asserts X as fact.
Liberal: What evidence do you have to support your assertion?
Conservative: {changes the subject}
.
The pattern of my interactions with Art is almost invariably:
Me: Assertion Y, complete with evidence and links to primary sources of evidence.
Art: You're a commie liberal, so whatever you say is wrong (doesn't even address the evidence or conclusion I presented).
.
Actually, though, I don't mind this pattern so much, because it makes it quite easy for anybody reading who might be on the fence about one issue or another to see which position is based on facts and reason rather than unthinking emotion and presupposition.
.
In any case, y'all can pursue this line as much as you want; I have little interest in a discussion of whatever liberals and conservatives do or don't do, so I'm pretty much done with this. I'm more interested in actual questions of policy.
December 30, 2009 at 10:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
LOL! Y'all need a group hug! (((((()))))) ;-)
December 30, 2009 at 11:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tim (Tim Lamb) says...
"artmann (Art Mann) says...
Tim, his whole purpose is just to get back at Wenatchee because everyone used to make fun of him in High School here. He thinks disrupting the boards here with moronic posts (he thinks are arguments) will stake his revenge."
I knew there was a chip on the shoulder with the personal attacks. Wish it weren't so because he's intelligent enough to have good debate with if he didn't make it so personal.
Thanks for the insight art.
Happy new year Norm!
December 30, 2009 at 7:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
I've no interest in defending myself against personal attacks; they're simply not relevant. Suffice it to say that anything Art says about me is entirely his own theory: his only source of information about me is my posts on this board.
January 4, 2010 at 9:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tim (Tim Lamb) says...
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"I've no interest in defending myself against personal attacks"
Maybe I shouldn't point this out Norm, but you just defended yourself.
Lets decide to stick to the facts and not be personal or take things personal.
(wow, that sounds boring :)
January 4, 2010 at 11:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
Suffice it to say = I'll say this much and no more (re. addressing Art's ridiculous conjecture).
January 4, 2010 at 12:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )