Employers quietly fire illegal workers
Monday, November 23, 2009
SEATTLE — A janitorial company owned by a local conservative talk-radio host is among the early targets of a new strategy by the Obama administration to thin the ranks of illegal immigrants by going after the companies that hire them.
Seattle Building Maintenance, owned by KVI talk-radio host Peter Weissbach and his wife, provides janitorial services in buildings throughout the Puget Sound region, including such Seattle landmarks as the Seattle Art Institute, Pacific Place, Metropolitan Park and the Dexter Horton and Westin buildings.
The subject of an ongoing immigration audit by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, ICE, the company has been clearing its books by firing some of its janitorial staff — about 100 people so far — believed to be working illegally.
The probe of Seattle Building Maintenance offers an early glimpse into ICE’s approach to worksite enforcement — stealthily targeting employers rather than workers.
It’s a departure from the big splashy raids that used to play out on the evening news, with large numbers of immigrants being rounded up and carted off to detention, where many faced removal.
Now, workers are quietly let go by their employers, without the direct contact with immigration agents that might lead to deportation.
Immigrant advocates who initially lauded the shift in strategy as more humane are now seeing the impact it has on workers unable to find new jobs in a slow economy, while their employers appear to escape largely unscathed, much as they did under the old policy.
And those who support enforcement say the new policy is shortsighted, that along with not really punishing employers it does nothing to remove illegal immigrants, instead leaving them free to move to the next willing employer.
Service Employees International Union Local 6, which represents about 280 of Seattle Building’s workers, said as many as 150 of them might be undocumented. The company has an estimated workforce of up to 300 people.
The workers are being released not all at once, but in waves, to make it easier for managers to find their replacements, the union said.
Company officials did not return telephone calls seeking comment but in a statement said that the terminations were necessary to comply with federal immigration law and that the company “encourages development and implementation of a rational national immigration policy.”
ICE did not confirm the investigation.
The agency’s new enforcement approach was showcased in Los Angeles last month when American Apparel fired 1,800 immigrant employees — more than a quarter of its workforce — after an immigration audit.
And a janitorial company in Minnesota quietly fired 1,200 workers around the same time after an investigation found they were working illegally.
A year ago, those would have been major worksite raids — visible, public and splashy.
“From an advocate perspective it’s an improvement on some level over what was happening before,” said Jorge Barón, executive director of Northwest Immigrant Rights Project.
“But it still doesn’t resolve the ultimate issue: We (in this country) need this workforce, and we don’t have a path for companies to hire them legally.”
Ira Mehlman, spokesman for the Federation for American Immigration Reform, said the cases in Minnesota and California suggest that employers are escaping penalty and that the administration’s new policy appears to deter neither employers nor the illegal-immigrant workers they hire.
“This does nothing to address the millions of people in the country illegally” who have an incentive to remain here as long as possible in the hopes of eventually winning amnesty, Mehlman said.
“As long as that’s on the table,” she said, “they will stick it out because there’s a good chance of being rewarded.”
In a recent speech, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano acknowledged that immigration laws now lack teeth in successfully prosecuting employers who knowingly hire illegally immigrants and said fines are so low dishonest businesses often ignore them.
Reform being planned in Congress should increase the civil and criminal penalties for employers who violate immigration laws as well as extend “earned legal status” to many of the estimated 12 million undocumented immigrants, she said.
Comments
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Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"Am I missing something? "
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Yes, you are. The local conservative talk-radio host was no doubt one of the many using his bully pulpit to shout about the evils of illegal immigrants while the company he owned employed over 100 of them.
November 23, 2009 at 10:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>Am I missing something? They are here ILLEGALLY!
With unemployment reaching 10% in some areas of Washington, why are they being allowed to stay?<
Eleven to twelve million undocumented people is a lot of people to transport out of the country. Do you have any suggestions on how to manage a crowd that size that really doesn't want to leave? Should we resort to Gestapo tactics and invade their homes at night? Also they aren't all Hispanics and Latinos as many people tend to believe. About twenty per cent of them are from other foreign countries. This is a huge social issue to say the least and if incorrectly managed could lead to race riots and all kinds of social unrest and subsequent instability. Oh, and the most recent state unemployment figures by county indicate Clark County with the highest rate of 13.7%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_...
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/in...
November 23, 2009 at 11:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MADGSXR (MAD GSXR) says...
Those 'undocumented' are actually 'highly documented' with fraudulent documents our government readily accepts.
November 24, 2009 at 7:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MADGSXR (MAD GSXR) says...
A person (including a group of persons, business, organization or local government) commits a federal felony when he:
* assists an alien whom he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him to obtain employment,
* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S., by referring him to an employer, by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or
* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.
Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime.
Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor. Aliens and employers violating immigration laws are subject to arrest, detention, and seizure of their vehicles or property. In addition, individuals or entities who engage in racketeering enterprises that commit (or conspire to commit) immigration-related felonies are subject to private civil suits for treble damages and injunctive relief.
November 24, 2009 at 7:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MADGSXR (MAD GSXR) says...
CONCEPTS FOR IMMIGRATION SANITY
*
Illegal immigration has a huge negative impact upon America and contributes significantly to school overcrowding, health care crisis, highway congestion, wage depression, unemployment of citizens, and environmental degradation.
*
Illegal employers deserve massively more scrutiny and enforcement to combat their employment of illegal workers. Many employment laws such as the I-9 form were designed more to shield corporations from responsibility than to enforce immigration and labor laws for the protection of citizens and this must be corrected. Illegal employers should be considered anti-American, otherwise they would be hiring Americans at a livable wage.
*
Illegal immigration has resulted in mass lawlessness which creates an ominous double-standard where citizens are expected to obey the law but illegal aliens are not.
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Immigration is an issue of limits and lawfulness, not of race and culture. When immigration is viewed only racially and culturally, limits and legality will never be imposed. The debate must focus on limitations and lawfulness, otherwise open borders will make the United States a marketplace and not a country.
*
Illegal immigration is actually an issue of nationalism, not racism. All countries have the right to protect its borders from those who enter illegally. This means foreign nationals do not have the right to violate immigration laws.
*
Violating U.S. immigration law is not a human right. The United Nations state; “Every one has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.” The human rights proclamation provides global citizens the right of emigration and return to their home country but does not include the right to violate the immigration laws of the host country of their choice.
*
Illegal aliens should return voluntarily to their home country. Once in their home country foreigners can apply for residency via proper procedures. The American public increasingly is opposing amnesty and the likelihood of future amnesties is declining rapidly.
*
Americans indeed should help global citizens, where they are at. Americans need to address the root causes of migration including poverty, corruption and illiteracy, which will require significant changes in US foreign policy. Immigration is not the solution to global problems.
*
Illegal aliens are an exploited underclass. The existence and condoning of this underclass is fundamentally against the principle of "All men are created equal" upon which America was founded. Ending the exploitation of the illegal alien underclass will end only when politicians, media, and others truly oppose illegal immigration in word and deed.
November 24, 2009 at 7:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"Illegal aliens are an exploited underclass. The existence and condoning of this underclass is fundamentally against the principle of "All men are created equal" upon which America was founded. Ending the exploitation of the illegal alien underclass will end only when politicians, media, and others truly oppose illegal immigration in word and deed. "
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You're right about that to some extent. What needs to be changed is more immigration allowed - enough to satisfy willing employers - not stricter enforcement against people seeking to provide for their families.
November 24, 2009 at 8:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mtg0722 (micheal greening) says...
"Oh, and the most recent state unemployment figures by county indicate Clark County with the highest rate of 13.7%."
Yea Norm, that's what we need, more immigrants, let's make it even harder for citizens to find a job to support their families.
November 24, 2009 at 9:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MADGSXR (MAD GSXR) says...
The Statue of
Liberty is a monument dedicated to freedom and liberty. She never meant that foreigners have the right to violate America's immigration laws
November 24, 2009 at 10:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>She never meant that foreigners have the right to violate America's immigration laws<
That's very true. However, Lady Liberty always stood as a beacon of invitation and hope to those who wanted to escape oppression of all kinds. So in a way we are at cross-purposes with our current immigration policy in this country.
Our Founding Fathers never envisioned an America of entitlements, nor did they ever envision an America willing to construct concrete barriers to keep crossovers and terrorists out of the country in order to uphold existing laws. My conviction has always been that if you make the grass greener on the other side that you will be unable to keep the horse from jumping the fence. America needs to do away with the entitlements. Doing so would solve a plethora of economic and social problems associated with illegal immigration. Unfortunately, the nanny state is well entrenched in our society and once the village-child is given candy freely it will always want for more.
November 24, 2009 at 10:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MADGSXR (MAD GSXR) says...
Our government can track a cow born in Canada almost three years ago, right to the stall where she sleeps in the state of Washington. They can track calves direct to their stalls, but is unable to locate 11+ million illegal aliens wandering around our country. Perhaps the solution is to give every illegal alien a cow.
November 24, 2009 at 10:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
That's because every cow has an ID tag and BSE/vCJD can be deadly if it ever finds its way into our supermarkets. I guess they figure undocumented workers don't pose that type of serious health risk.
November 24, 2009 at 11:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MADGSXR (MAD GSXR) says...
LOL
November 24, 2009 at 11:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BeenThere (John Smith) says...
+1 for micheal greening!!!!
We need to employ our legal citizens and stop the entitlements to get them to work.
By the way Mav, they jump the fence, they go under it or land on our shores from abroad.
The illegal’s, no matter where they came, from s/b removed and the employer prosecuted. No Mav, not one giant round up but law enforcement needs to stop looking the other way when they are found.
November 24, 2009 at 1:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
alwysoptimistic (Stephanie Yanez) says...
Believe that LAWS STAND FOR SOMETHING. i AM REFFERING TO LAWS OF THE HUMAN RACE- NOT A SPECIFIC AREA. aRE WE BEING RESPECTED BY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS? We are expected to accept them, but they start out here by breaking the law. I have illegal immigrant friends. One didn't know he was until he got arrested at the age of 18, because he came here so young his parents lied about it to him, the schools, jobs, etc. His parents were wrong! I still love them for who they are, but that was disrespectful to themselves, their child, and our country.
November 24, 2009 at 2:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeffR (Jeff Reister) says...
My comment is a little off topic, but don't we have way more than enough people in the US already?
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I remember a jingle on the radio from when I was a kid in the 60's. "Who listens to raaaa-eeee-oooo, only one hundred and fifty million people, that's all". Now it's over 300 million. Cripes! How many radio listeners do we really need?
November 24, 2009 at 3:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
> No Mav, not one giant round up but law enforcement needs to stop looking the other way when they are found.<
Where would they put them initially and where would they keep them indefinitely and how would they provide for them until they could be returned to their native homeland and who would provide for all this transportation out of the country and how would this vicious cycle not continue to be repeated over and over and over again? Our current system is not designed to house, process, and relocate 11+ million people in an orderly fashion and even if it could, how would you prevent them from coming back and thus requiring our system to re-process them yet again...and again...and again...? You see, if law enforcement was required to NOT look the other way, this would all come to bear rather quickly. Like I said, this is a HUGE social issue and there are no quick fixes, imho.
November 24, 2009 at 4:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
Actually, a quick fix would be to do away with all entitlements, but that would affect too many of America's poor and disadvantaged citizens. So that won't ever happen.
November 24, 2009 at 4:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
Believe that LAWS STAND FOR SOMETHING. i AM REFFERING TO LAWS OF THE HUMAN RACE
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First of all, your sentence doesn't make much sense - and all caps doesn't help your argument. Laws can be wrong, Stephanie.
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aRE WE BEING RESPECTED BY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS? We are expected to accept them, but they start out here by breaking the law
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You are condemning people for trying to provide for the survival of their families by working hard. Imagine yourself in their place and try to learn compassion. If anyone is being disrespectful, it is you and others like you who condemn people who are simply trying to find jobs. Trying to find work in order to provide for your family is not wrong, and if you think it is, there's something wrong with you.
November 24, 2009 at 6 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
Actually, a quick fix would be to do away with all entitlements, but that would affect too many of America's poor and disadvantaged citizens. So that won't ever happen.
.
No, mav. Most people who come here do so to work, not to receive handouts. Walk around in your orchard sometime and see. Try to do the work they do for a few days. You are extracting a much higher tax from their labor than the taxes the government extracts from yours.
November 24, 2009 at 6:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mtg0722 (micheal greening) says...
Norm,
Have you ever picked fruit? Worked in an orchard? Worked in a packing shed? I have. I was raised in this valley; I worked picking fruit, cherries, pears, peaches, and apples. I also spent a few summers working in the packing sheds. Heck, my Mom worked in a packing shed for 25 years.
Seasonally, we had Hispanics in the area, but for the most part they were migrant workers, each spring/summer, they would be in town to pick cherries, peaches, pears and finally apples. They would follow the harvests and when the season was over, they went home.
In a couple of seasons that I remember, the harvest was large; schools in the area would allow high school kids out of school to help with the harvests. It was a great way as a kid to make some extra money get work experience, and miss a week of school. I believe that, all in all, the harvests were picked and processed with out to many losses and we managed to get it done.
The point I am trying to make is, in the past, “migrant" workers who followed the harvest, WENT HOME after the harvest was done. That was until they started to have anchor babies and realized how generous and lenient this system was. The millions we as taxpayers spend on illegal immigrants far outweighs the benefits, especially when unemployment rates are what they are.
November 24, 2009 at 7:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>Most people who come here do so to work,<
Agreed, but it isn't just the work alone that provides the incentive for them to stay. Oh, and Norm, I have done the work they do for much of my life. The only difference is I had the privilege of being able to live in one place while working within a hundred mile radius of Wenatchee. Today I couldn't begin to cover all the bases without them. I need them and they need me. It's a delicate balance, but so far so good. It's hard not to respect and admire a people where the women are just as physically skilled as the men. Case in point: my foreman begged me to bag a deer this fall. So last month I bagged a very nice four point in our orchard and gave him a call. He immediately came out with his wife, his brother, and his son to dress out the deer. Now his wife was an expert at skinning an animal with a knife so she went to work doing that while the men did other things. I was amazed at how quickly she skinned the deer! Now how many American women do you know who could do that? I'll bet quite a few of them could about fifty or sixty years ago, but not today. That's one of the many differences between their culture and ours. They are true survivors. Americans used to be, but they've forgotten how to be. Anyway, long story short, they left with the lion's share of the venison and we were all grinning from ear to ear as they drove away.
November 24, 2009 at 7:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mom (Susan Feil) says...
I'm with you on this one, Mavulous. I respect and admire these people too. The idea that they come here to collect freebies is ridiculous. They (migrant workers) are the hardest working people in this valley, and they come here to provide for their families since it's virtually impossible to provide for them in Mexico. I have yet to meet a Mexican who came here because they heard that they could collect welfare, etc...
When I teach their kids, I encourage them to get an education so they don't find themselves 55 years old, and having to climb a tree at 5:00 in the morning, with achy bones and without retirement benefits or anything else.
These people come here with the hopes of offering a better future for their children and a chance for an education that the parents couldn't get in Mexico.
And, I agree with you too, Norm, not all laws are good and fair laws. Maybe it's time to change some of them.
November 24, 2009 at 9:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"The point I am trying to make is, in the past, “migrant" workers who followed the harvest, WENT HOME after the harvest was done. That was until they started to have anchor babies and realized how generous and lenient this system was. The millions we as taxpayers spend on illegal immigrants far outweighs the benefits, especially when unemployment rates are what they are."
.
I get the point you're making, loud and clear: you don't want Mexicans to be able to anything but the hardest work for the lowest pay. It doesn't occur to you that they are people, too, with hopes and dreams just like anybody else. Why shouldn't they be able to move up into better paying, less physically demanding work? The fact that you don't consider them people is obvious from the terms you use: "illegals", "anchor babies" etc. The fact is, as Mad GSXER pointed out above, the laws preventing their legal immigration aren't about keeping people out - employers like Mav would be in bad shape if that happened, and they know it - the laws are about keeping them as a permanent underclass. Every wave of non-Anglo immigrants to America - Irish, Germans, Chinese, Eastern Europeans, and so on, have faced the kind of xenophobia that people like you are manipulated into screaming about - blaming the newcomers for whatever problems currently exist.
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People who do hard labor for low wages put more into the economy than they take out of it, that's an obvious fact for anybody who is able to think; the people who play games with the casino economy are taking out all the money without adding any value, but they keep you distracted by stirring up your fear and hatred of people who look different than you, people who talk funny. They've even got you to fight against them paying any capital gains or inheritance taxes. Look at the shiny thing! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
November 24, 2009 at 9:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mtg0722 (micheal greening) says...
Norm,
I am all in favor of bettering one's self, LEGALLY. There are many immigrants in this country that have done it the right way, they have worked hard to go through our immigration system and many have become citizens. I have nothing but respect for them; I have found them to be genuinely good people, law-abiding, respectful and industrious.
Illegal immigrants, however, broke the law the second they stepped over the border, and everything, every benefit, every opportunity, every job, is a reward for breaking the law.
Let's take illegal immigrants having babies in our country, these people come here ILLEGALLY, they have children and now the children are citizens. It is like rewarding the relatives of a bank robber, allowing the family to keep the money that was stolen from the bank.
Being in this country legally is a privilege, becoming a citizen is an honor. There is a process for becoming a citizen in this country; these people, who are here illegally, have spit in the face of our laws, our legal process and our way of life.
Is the immigration system perfect? Is any system perfect? The answer would of course be no, on all accounts, but we as citizens are expected to live within the system, our system, until it changes, illegal immigrants should be held to the same standards, the same laws.
November 24, 2009 at 11:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"I am all in favor of bettering one's self, LEGALLY."
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Then you agree with me that the law should be changed. Immigration laws, unlike the law of gravity, are written by humans and can be changed by humans.
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"It is like rewarding the relatives of a bank robber, allowing the family to keep the money that was stolen from the bank."
.
No, it isn't like that. Stealing is inherently wrong. Walking across an imaginary line is only "wrong" because legislators say it is.
.
"these people, who are here illegally, have spit in the face of our laws, our legal process and our way of life. "
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Didn't you feel just a little bit silly writing that? People who only want to be able to work to support their families are "spitting in your way of life"? Seriously? You really feel victimized by people who work harder than you do for less money than you make? I weep for you and your poor, bespittled face.
November 25, 2009 at 12:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MADGSXR (MAD GSXR) says...
Mexico's Basic Immigration Laws
1)All immigrants must speak Spanish.
2)Only professionals and investors allowed---no unskilled workers.
3)There will be no bilingual programs in the schools, no special ballots for elections, and all government business will be conducted in Spanish.
4)Foreigners will never have the right to vote.
5)Foreigners will never be able to hold public office.
6)Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food stamps, no free health care, nor any other government assistance programs.
7)Foreigners may invest in the country, but the amount must equal 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
8)Foreigners may buy land, but are not allowed to buy waterfront property.
9)Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no foreign flag waving, no political organizing, no criticism of the president or his policies. Any violation of these will lead to deportation.
10)Any apprehended illegal immigrant will be jailed.
November 25, 2009 at 7:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BeenThere (John Smith) says...
Norm,
Robbing a bank is only illegal "wrong" because legislators say it is." Driving 100 MPH is only wrong because legislators say it is. It is that way with all laws.
Why don't you go down to the southern or northern board without your passport, sneak across and then try living there, asking for a job and handouts. See what happens to you.
As I have said in many other posts on the World, I welcome anyone who wants to better him or herself but we have a method to do so and they MUST follow it. If they disrespect the US laws by sneaking across the boards, then chances are they will not understand our principles or our other laws.
If people come here without going through the immigration system, then they are criminals just the same as someone who breaks into your house and steals from you so they can feed their families. You really need to open your eyes.
I do agree that the immigration laws do need to be changes a bit. I think they s/b changed so a baby born in the US by illegal aliens should not be granted citizenship. NOTICE I said ILLEGAL!
Again, there is a right way and a wrong way. If you choose to come here the wrong way, you need to leave and apply to come back the right way. Of course, that means you have to prove you can support yourself and your family and that you will not be taking a job away from a current US Citizen.
November 25, 2009 at 7:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"Mexico's Basic Immigration Laws"
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Are irrelevant to the discussion of what our laws should be.
November 25, 2009 at 7:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"It is that way with all laws
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_in_se
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I've lived in Mexico for 6 months, John, and I found the people there to be incredibly generous. For the first few weeks, I always passed by the homeless grandmothers with their kids on the streets, then two things happened: One day I say a middle-school aged kid, from his clothes, he was neither a wealthy nor a super-poor kid, but he would definitely count as poor here in the US - give one of these grandmothers a few pesos. Another time, I was going to lunch with my Spanish teacher - a guy with a Master's degree who couldn't have been making more than about $3 an hour (I was paying about $6 an hour to his school for private lessons) give some money. I can make more money in an hour back home than these people can make all day, yet they feel like they have enough to give to those who are less fortunate than themselves, while I couldn't be bothered to do the same. I also recall how generous people were with me - somebody who had far more money than they did.
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When I compare the attitudes I encountered in Mexico to attitudes like yours, I am ashamed that you and others like you are my countrymen.
November 25, 2009 at 7:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BeenThere (John Smith) says...
So you think we should just open our boarders and let anyone and everyone in or are you just talking about people south of the boarder and are going to discriminate against the rest of the world?
The Chinese have proven in the past they are harder workers than the Mexicans (after all, they built the railroads when the Mexicans were here). Shall be let 100 or 200+ million come on over?
This Country is already supporting a lot of the governments of the world; it can't afford to support the people of the world.
November 25, 2009 at 7:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mtg0722 (micheal greening) says...
Then you agree with me that the law should be changed. Immigration laws, unlike the law of gravity, are written by humans and can be changed by humans.
Norm, I never said I agree with you. The law is what it is. Is the process lengthy and cumbersome, from what I am told yes, should it be simplified, maybe, maybe not. As stated before, being a citizen is and should be an honor, the system is difficult and lengthy to assure not just anyone can be a citizen.
No, it isn't like that. Stealing is inherently wrong. Walking across an imaginary line is only "wrong" because legislators say it is.
Are you serious? It's not only wrong but ILLEGAL! Our laws are our laws, stupid or not. Some do not make sense, try and drive around Wenatchee without a seatbelt and see how long it takes to get a ticket.
These people who cross our borders, know what they are doing, They cross with intent. They know our laws. They are taking the easy way out, they could go through our process, but chose not to. To think otherwise is simply naive.
People who only want to be able to work to support their families are "spitting in your way of life"? Seriously? You really feel victimized by people who work harder than you do for less money than you make? I weep for you and your poor, bespittled face.
With unemployment at 13.7% in Grant County alone, they are taking jobs away from citizens who are trying to support their families. How do you know how hard American Citizens work? We are the greatest Country in the world, we didn't get here by accident.
Hundreds and thousands of these illegal immigrants have entered this workforce thereby reducing and devalueing jobs that used to pay a fair wage.
"these people, who are here illegally, have spit in the face of our laws, our legal process and our way of life."
"I weep for you and your poor, bespittled face."
If you are going to comment on my postings at least be acccurate. Your feeble attempt at cleverness, while entertaining, has no place in this forum.
November 25, 2009 at 8:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Enesvy (Nicole Villacres) says...
"Of course, that means you have to prove you can support yourself and your family and that you will not be taking a job away from a current US Citizen."
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Yes, there are SO many unemployed American citizens just dying to take an orchard job or work as custodians or hotel maids. Don't be ridiculous. American citizens are spoiled and not interested in those jobs. Why do you think they're even available for illegal immigrants to have? Because we would rather take unemployment than take one of those jobs. It's sad, but true.
November 25, 2009 at 10:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
alwysoptimistic (Stephanie Yanez) says...
Norm, you have a nasty way of thinking, you prove it in your rudeness. I'm not condeming people in any way just because I don't agree. Also, There is nothing wrong with the laws of the human race! You were wrong in both your remarks to me, however I'm not surprised because you often take things out of context to appease your own needs at proving your own point. Your truely are a King at being one-sided and inconsiderate for selfish reasons.
November 25, 2009 at 10:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
alwysoptimistic (Stephanie Yanez) says...
Illegal immigrants aren't helping us to help them; by breaking a law that is put in place to protect the society and government we have worked so hard to establish. Flawed as it may be, it is worth protecting.
November 25, 2009 at 10:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
1) Plenty of laws, past, present, and unfortunately future, are simply wrong. For one very simple and obvious example among many, slavery used to be legal. Also, when you use a phrase like "laws of the human race" its not very clear what you're trying to say.
2) I have opinions; if that makes me one-sided, I don't see how that distinguishes me from anybody else.
3) If you think I'm rude, well, you're entitled to your opinion, and I have no need to try to change it.
November 25, 2009 at 10:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cslatamani (casa latamani) says...
Very amusing comment re/cow trail and illegals.
F.Y.I.
Mad Cow disease has so far killed 165 Britains and 44 from elsewhere.
The response from Mavulous ,they (illegals) "might not
pose a health risk" was, however ,not so funny.
TWO MILLION people die yearly from tuberculosis.
There are more cases of TUBERCULOSIS among
Hispanics than any other ethnic group....eight
times higher than in whites.
source: JAMA
Journal of the American Medical Assoc.
November 25, 2009 at 11:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
Good thing we're demanding that they not have access to health care, eh?
November 25, 2009 at 12:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MADGSXR (MAD GSXR) says...
Illegal Aliens are not immigrants!
About 60% of the illegal alien population are "undocumented aliens," who are commonly known as "unlawful border crossers," or more properly known as "illegal aliens."
About 40% of the U.S. illegal alien population are "documented aliens," who are commonly known as "visa overstayers."
The visa overstayers hold non-immigrant visas such as the H-1B skilled foreign worker visa.
Therefore, it is not possible for the holder of an expired non-immigrant visa to become an "immigrant" as a result of staying beyond the visa duration.
November 25, 2009 at 1:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AnotherLocalIdiot (Ryan M) says...
They shouldn't have access to ANY benefits that legal citezens recieve. The legal citizens pay alot of money to have these benefits, yet the illegal people seam to benefit from them just as well, if not better, and dont pay into these programs. I am a hard working, LEGAL citizen, that has paid into the different government tax systems my whole working life. I do NOT have access to health care insurance, because of a pre-existing illness. Yet, when someone here illegaly has a sniffle, they go to the ER & get seen, and DONT pay a penny when they leave. I am FORCED to pay, in full, before I leave the hospital. How is that right?
And taking jobs that we spoiled Americans aren't willing to do? Janitorial work was an example? B.S.! I have worked janitorial work in my life, and my in-laws & wife still do. It is a good paying job that needs to be done. I clean the toilet at my house, what's the big deal with cleaning it at a business? Sure, there are jobs that some Americans don't want to/won't do, but there will ALWAYS be another LEGAL AMERICAN that will be willing to take that job to support his/her family. ALWAYS. By LEGAL AMERICAN, I dont care if they are white, brown, black, etc. Just someone who is here LEGALLY.
November 25, 2009 at 1:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mtg0722 (micheal greening) says...
Norm,
I am a little curious, when you were in Mexico studying, did you have documentation? Be honest, were you ever stopped and asked for your ID?
Since you were there, you must have known their laws, what would have happened if you could not have provided documentation?
Did you have to obey their laws, not matter how stupid you may have felt some of them were?
Again, just curious.
November 25, 2009 at 1:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>The response from Mavulous ,they (illegals) "might not
pose a health risk" was, however ,not so funny.<
yawn...I am so very misunderstood. This is what I actually typed:
" I guess they figure undocumented workers don't pose that type of serious health risk"....snoooorrrrrre...
November 25, 2009 at 1:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
> Sure, there are jobs that some Americans don't want to/won't do, but there will ALWAYS be another LEGAL AMERICAN that will be willing to take that job to support his/her family. <
In principal that sounds good, Ryan. However, in the real world it just doesn't work that way. White Americans rarely ever ask to pick fruit. I could certainly never, ever depend upon them to harvest our crops. A couple years ago I had a white American beg for a cherry picking job. He was supposedly a commercial interior painter new to the area who needed a quick job...had never picked fruit before, but because he seemed desperate I decided to try him against my better judgment. To say the least it was a disaster. After two days and ten lugs of damaged cherries he disappeared. One month later he called to ask for his check. Since he had left without filling out his W-4 and I-9 forms, I offered to mail them to his address so he could fill them out and return them to me in order for me to make out his check. So he gave me his address and I mailed him the forms and I haven't seen or heard anything since.
November 25, 2009 at 1:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
alwysoptimistic (Stephanie Yanez) says...
Why am I not surprised that Norm can't differentiate between laws of countries and laws of the human race. One comes from ego, and one comes from the pure nature of the world as it exists.
November 25, 2009 at 1:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>the pure nature of the world as it exists.<
I like that statement! I really do. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Kinda reminds me of Nietzche and Descartes dressed as Jekyll and Hyde at a costume party.
November 25, 2009 at 2:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MADGSXR (MAD GSXR) says...
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
November 25, 2009 at 2:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"laws of the human race." is your own personal term, Stephanie; it has no commonly understood meaning; people other than you can only guess at what you mean when you string those words together.
November 25, 2009 at 2:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
"Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all"
.
No more St. Pattie's day :(
.
We have room for but one flag, the American flag.
.
Every state has its own flag, the Kiwanas have a flag, the armed forces have their service and regimental flags, and on and on.
.
"We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language."
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Not a student of American history, eh?
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"and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
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There goes religious freedom, marital fidelity, and a host of other loyalties. In sum, its a pretty poem and all, but its totally at odds with reality.
November 25, 2009 at 2:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MADGSXR (MAD GSXR) says...
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
November 25, 2009 at 2:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Enesvy (Nicole Villacres) says...
Norm and I don't always agree, Stephanie, but I totally agree with him that "laws of the human race" is a completely ambiguous term. I have no idea what you mean by it. Are you referring to compassion? The golden rule?
.
Quoting Mav: "Kinda reminds me of Nietzche and Descartes dressed as Jekyll and Hyde at a costume party." ...my mind boggles!
November 25, 2009 at 3:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mom (Susan Feil) says...
I'm so bugged by this whole conversation. Unless you have studied up on what is involved in becoming an American, maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge those "illegals" who are here. For one thing, it is nearly impossible to come here legally from Mexico. The quota is so low that it might take 20 years or maybe never to get papers to come here. and people are too desperate to wait 20 years. Second, there are certain qualifications for coming here legally which would speed up the process that include having $1,000,000 that you are willing to invest in a business in the US that will create jobs for Americans.
From what I know of the immigration laws, and I know a lot, they are bent in favor of the American government and that may be okay, but for you to say that they should come here legally, is a joke. The immigrants I know, both legal and not, would give anything to become US citizens, but don't get the opportunity.
I used to teach ESL/Civics classes for WVC that were required for people who wanted to become permanent residents. I do know the law and have helped people to get their papers. These are people who were lucky enough to qualify under the IRCA of 1986. This is a US law that allowed amnesty for people who were working in agriculture. The interesting thing about this law is that the only people who qualified were recent arrivals who worked in agriculture, because, as Norm said, they wanted to keep this underclass of people who would work for little money. Immigrants who had been here longer and might want to move beyond working in agriculture were required to meet many more rules because they were discouraging these people from staying here. The point of this is that the government did want unskilled and agricultural workers who were willing to work for less than other Americans. It was in our country's best interest to keep them here.
You can assure yourself that the laws were made to benefit the American people and are not basic human laws. And, I want to also point out that roughly a third of the contiguous US was once a part of Mexico before we took it and called it a treaty. Sure, we paid them, but it wasn't a choice. So, to say that this country is of one language, you really don't have to look back very far to find out that this isn't true.
Please see part 2.
November 25, 2009 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mom (Susan Feil) says...
Part 2 Another history lesson, the idea of America being of one language occurred during WW1 when Germans were here and speaking their own language. Then we know about internment camps where Japanese Americans were forced to go. That law seemed okay at the time, but the US government is now trying to make amends for having done that to those people because we now see it as wrong. In both of these situations the US people saw them as a threat and that is where the opposition to people speaking any other language than English first occurred.
My belief is not that we should have open boarders, but that people who come here willing to work and with the desire to follow the process of becoming a US citizen, should be able to do this. I know people who have spent years trying to get papers legally because they do not like living here outside of our laws, but the alternative is to live in Mexico and not be able to provide for their families. I know that if I were in that position, I would do the same thing.
And, to second Norm's view of Mexico, I have had the exact same experiences with Mexicans there. People who have barely enough to survive, share what they can with anyone, including me. I hated to take from them when I had so much more, but they wanted to share and I took what they offered.
November 25, 2009 at 4:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AnotherLocalIdiot (Ryan M) says...
So, "MOM", in your mind, it is ok to break a law if you are just too impatient to follow it. So, why do we have laws at all? If any law is inconvenient for me, it does NOT give me the right to break it. The laws, whether you agree with them or not, are there for a reason. Yes, it should not be a cake walk to become an American citizen. Otherwise, what would be the point? Make it even easier for people to live off of the USA's free hand-outs? Canada is looking better and better each day with the way this country is going....
November 25, 2009 at 4:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
Oh my! It appears to work this way:
If you have compassion for the Hispanic people and appreciate and respect their work ethic, then you will think our immigration laws are too harsh and need to be relaxed.
If, otoh, you resent them being here because you believe that they are here illegally, then you want them shipped back home ASAP and/or punished to the fullest extent of the law! Why should they be here taking advantage of all our benefits and living off of our generous tax dollars that give them all kinds of freebies? After all, they are taking away jobs from American citizens who are currently unemployed! American citizens should have first opportunity when it comes to any and ALL available work.
Perhaps rational minds need to take two steps back and consider that if they are here working, then they are contributing to the system and the local economy and that's a good thing. Like I said, in spite of all your lofty assumptions that white Americans want to pick fruit to feed their families, the truth of the matter is that they really do not want to pick fruit at all. That's just the way it is. If you took all Hispanics out of this valley entirely, the fruit industry would go broke overnight. Now don't kid yourself, if that happened the repercussions would be devastating to the local economy. So, a little common sense would indicate that they need to remain here somehow, someway. Now then, if it is a priority that they do remain here in order to maintain the viability of the local fruit industry and the local economy, then what must we do to resolve the apparent conflicts as they currently exist? You see, we have to make some assumptions here. Many of you are assuming that white Americans are willing to step up to the plate and pick fruit on ladders and thin fruit on ladders and do all manner of associated tasks in the orchards in the one hundred degree heat for minimum wage plus a buck. I'm here to tell you that white Americans will not be willing to do that--at least not for very long. Now a fruit crop can't wait on the whims of a worker who thinks it's just too hot outside to work today, or it's just too cold outside to pick Pink Ladies in mid-November. So now the ball is in your court, but I can promise you this; without the viability and sustainability of the local fruit industry in our area, Wenatchee as we now know it will cease to exist.
November 25, 2009 at 5:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BeenThere (John Smith) says...
I have a great idea. Lets get Norm's Spanish teacher with a Masters and gets paid $3.00 an hour to sneak over the boarder, pay him $15.00 an hour (5x what he makes in Mexico) and replace Susan Feil. We can help him out and save the State a boatload of money.
I am sure he is willing to come here for $15.00 an hour job.
Mav, there use to be a lot of white migrant fruit pickers. I picked right along side them in the sixty’s and early seventy's. But, our entitlement programs grew so much most of them figured out they could make more not working and left the field, hotels and other minimum wage jobs. We need to end the entitlements and put them back to work. Sure, there is going to be a learning curve but you know what? Everyone (white, brown, black, yellow) starts out with a learning curve. How did you learn to pick fruit, Mav? Did you help this guy or just send him out into the orchard on his own? Did you check on him and give him advice on what he was doing wrong, pointing out what he was doing right?
By the way MOM, you comment, “The point of this is that the government did want unskilled and agricultural workers who were willing to work for less than other Americans.” Is wrong. The government was pressured by the Agriculture community to grant them amnesty. The agriculture community wanted the cheap labor, not the government. The funny thing is after they were granted amnesty; they left the fields and the cycle started again.
November 25, 2009 at 5:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cslatamani (casa latamani) says...
<..."yawn..I'm so misunderstood" say's Mahvulous<
So read between the lines Mahv.....
The type of serious health risk(s) they DO pose is
far greater than a little bovine madness.
Happy dreams!
November 25, 2009 at 5:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
" it is ok to break a law if you are just too impatient to follow it. So, why do we have laws at all? If any law is inconvenient for me, it does NOT give me the right to break it."
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It has absolutely nothing to do with patience or convenience, Ryan. It has to do with feeding your family. If working to feed your family has been made a crime, then yes, you are justified in breaking that law.
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" The laws, whether you agree with them or not, are there for a reason."
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Yes, I've explained the reason. Its a bad one.
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"Yes, it should not be a cake walk to become an American citizen. Otherwise, what would be the point?"
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1) Are you just using a random sentence generator? What's the point of being an American citizen if its easy to do? The point is getting a job.
2) How difficult was it for you to become an American citizen? All I had to do was be born.
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"Make it even easier for people to live off of the USA's free hand-outs? "
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Your mythology has no factual basis.
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"Canada is looking better and better each day with the way this country is going...."
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If you promise not to come back, I'll buy you a bus ticket.
November 25, 2009 at 5:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>How did you learn to pick fruit, Mav? Did you help this guy or just send him out into the orchard on his own? Did you check on him and give him advice on what he was doing wrong, pointing out what he was doing right?<
My father taught me. Yes, I did help him and I did work with him briefly, but apparently it wasn't near enough. At the time we were managing about twenty other pickers and getting their fruit out of the field, etc., etc. To be honest with you, I didn't think he would come back the second day and when he didn't show up by 7:00 AM the following morning I felt relieved. However, unknown to me, he showed up about a half hour later and I didn't even know he was working on the place because he never checked in. Probably felt bad about showing up two hours late. Anyway, it wasn't until about Noon that I even realized he was working. By that time he had about five lugs of the wrong variety picked. Things can get a little crazy in a cherry orchard at harvest time, lol!
November 25, 2009 at 6:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BeenThere (John Smith) says...
"If working to feed your family has been made a crime, then yes, you are justified in breaking that law." like making meth, growing pot, prostitution, etc, all of which are work. Those doing this things are working. Ever heard of a working girl Norm?
November 25, 2009 at 7:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BeenThere (John Smith) says...
"My father taught me. Yes, I did help him and I did work with him briefly, but apparently it wasn't near enough." How much fruit did you ruin the first day? How much time did your dad spend with you? Briefly or were you perfect the first day out?
November 25, 2009 at 8:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
Picking apples is significantly different than cooking meth, John, but I'm not surprised that you can't see the difference.
November 25, 2009 at 8:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mom (Susan Feil) says...
You know, Been There, you argue both ends of the stick. On the one hand you say that white Americans no longer will work in an orchard because of entitlements and if we just didn't have them, they would replace the Hispanic workers, then you say that the Hispanics are here to get entitlements. Funny, you just argued that they are working the orchard because White Americans won't do it because they get entitlements. You seem to be going round and round in a circle.
And, the 60s and 70s were a long time ago. You might have noticed that things have changed since then.
And, you're right about that Mexican Spanish teacher; I'm sure he would love to come and work for $15.00 an hour without "entitlements" that you keep talking about. But, as you say, they all come her for the freebies that the government gives out to illegal aliens, right... And this argument makes sense?
November 25, 2009 at 8:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mom (Susan Feil) says...
By the way, "John Smith", it's easy to give your opinion even if it's unpopular if you use an alias. I guess you know my name well and you don't hesitate to make this discussion personal. Maybe you should try using your real name? See how that feels for people to really know how uncharitable you are toward people who have less than you do and how you have no problem insulting people on this blog calling them by name.
For whatever reason, in this article, the authorities are choosing to warn the employers and allow the undocumented aliens to leave without being processed and deported. They clearly have more empathy and understanding than you do.
By the way, you aren't the only one to have lived in this valley to remember the 60s and 70s. I was around then and I don't remember getting out of school for a week to harvest the crop. Exactly where did you live? Obviously not Wenatchee.
November 25, 2009 at 9 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mtg0722 (micheal greening) says...
By Rick Steigmeyer
World staff writer
Wednesday, November 25, 2009
“WENATCHEE — The down U.S. economy seems to hit hardest those with less to lose. More people are struggling to get by on unemployment or other forms of dwindling assistance. For some unemployed, payments have already run out. Realistically, chances of finding a job in a competitive market in January or February are slim to none.”
O.k. who wants to tell me what kind of employment these people would feel is beneath them?
How many immigrants do we have in this valley right now working legally, illegally ?
November 25, 2009 at 11:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BeenThere (John Smith) says...
"Picking apples is significantly different than cooking meth, John, but I'm not surprised that you can't see the difference."
Breaking the law is breaking the law Norm, but I'm not surprised that you haven't figured that out. Keep studying law. You just might figure it out someday. Maybe you should qualify your response and say only those laws Norm thinks s/b violated can be violated to feed your family.
November 28, 2009 at 5:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BeenThere (John Smith) says...
Mom, you can’t seem to keep who said what straight, so it is a little hard to respond to you. However, with the way the economy is and the number of legal people looking for work, we don’t need to flood the job market with illegal aliens and should work to remove them as they are found to help put our citizens back to work. In case you haven’t figured it out yet, they do more than pick fruit. As you tell your students, get educated so you won’t have to work in the orchards like your parents. Do you know how many of your students are illegal? The comment about your job was to give to an economics lesson – increase the supply of labor drives down wages. I guess you feel that is ok they take blue-collar jobs (construction type jobs you know) because they will work for less than a legal worker but not your job. If we can import teachers at half the pay, why not do it? As stated before, I am sure Norm’s teacher would love to have your job for at lot less than you get paid.
November 28, 2009 at 6:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mom (Susan Feil) says...
I'm bowing out of this discussion. It's clear that no matter what I say or anyone else who is in favor of tolerance and understanding, it won't change the minds of people who want to blame a group of people who already live in poverty and as second class or non-citizens. But, I maintain that if you, "John Smith" and you, MAD GASXR, really want to make your points, maybe you should try signing your real names. It would also be easier to keep track of who says what if I were reading a real name and associating what is written with that person rather than an alias.
Oh, and it seems that you should try to keep your comments from being personal, since this isn't what this blog is about, rather just about stating our own individual opinions.
November 28, 2009 at 9:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, John, and assume that you merely failed to click on the link I provided long ago, rather than assume that you failed to understand it. It has a great explanation of the point you are missing here:
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"Malum in se (plural mala in se) is a Latin phrase meaning wrong or evil in itself. This concept is a part of the value consensus model explanation of the origins of the criminal law. The phrase is used to refer to conduct assessed as inherently wrong by nature, independent of regulations governing the conduct. It is distinguished from malum prohibitum, which is wrong only because it is prohibited. For example, murder of human beings is universally agreed to be wrong by other human beings, regardless of whether a law exists or where the conduct occurs, and is thus recognizably malum in se. In contrast, consider driving laws. In the U.S., people drive on the right-hand side of the road. In the UK and other states of the Commonwealth, people drive on the left-hand side. Violation of these rules is an example of a malum prohibitum law because the act is not inherently bad, but is forbidden by policy, as set forth by the policy-makers of the jurisdiction. Malum prohibitum crimes are criminal not because they are inherently bad, but because the prohibited act is forbidden by the policy of the state."
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_in_se
November 29, 2009 at 1:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BeenThere (John Smith) says...
Norm, I believe you will find every country in the world and the majority of the people in those country will feel someone sneaking in their country to take jobs away from the legal residents in inherently wrong. Therefore what they are doing is Malum in se. I wonder how the legal resident is suppose to feed their family?
November 29, 2009 at 8 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
Crossing an arbitrary line in the sand is like driving on the right vs. the left side of the road. Working isn't inherently wrong; murder/theft/rape/etc. are.
November 29, 2009 at 9:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BeenThere (John Smith) says...
Norm, stealing jobs is. Stealing (theft of) tax supported services destine for legal residents is. Stealing (theft of) medical services is. Do I need to go on?
Countries have fought many wars since the beginning of history to protect their boarders. It is universal over the whole world, unlike which side of the street to drive on.
Your world without boarders will never work unless there is one world order.
November 30, 2009 at 7:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Norm (Norm Messer) says...
1. "Stealing" jobs is a metaphorical use of the word "stealing". Same with medical services. Your propsed expansion of malum prohibitum makes the distinction meaningless.
2. Actually, according to WTO and other agreements that the US and other OECD nations have vigorously pushed, the only thing not allowed to freely flow over borders is people; money, goods, and services can freely cross borders with minimal control by national governments.
November 30, 2009 at 9:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MADGSXR (MAD GSXR) says...
This seems to fit better here.....
Here is something that is not racist but fact....You have two families: "Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have two parents, two children, and live in California .
Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.
Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number,and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".
Ready? Now pay attention...
Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has $31,231.00.
Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or $31,200.00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00.
Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for his family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $24,031.00.
Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and local clinics at a cost of $000 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.
Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or welfare. Joe Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $18,031.00.
Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps and welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.
Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $9,631.00.
Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy. Jose Illegal pays $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $ 31,200.00.
Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for insurance. Joe Legal now has $7,231.00.
Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no stinkin' insurance!" and still has $31,200.00.
Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, etc.
Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month.
Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work.
Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.
Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.
Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services, but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.
Do you get it, now?
November 30, 2009 at 1:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
MAD, you build a good case. The only question I have is this assumption:
►Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number,and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".◄
The reason I question that is because we orchardists are accused of paying workers under the table all the time. The problem is if we pay them under the table we cannot deduct their wages from our Individual 1040 which means we pay much more in federal income tax and FICA tax as a result of undeclared wages/deductions on our Schedule F. Now I haven't run the numbers to know if it even makes good business sense to pay them under the table because it would require my having a big wad of cash at my disposal at all times. I guess I don't like having thousands of dollars on my person in order to pay them under the table and I guess I question if other employers really do? I would think you would have to have another business generating cash on the side to make this all work in your favor because from my point of view it all becomes very complicated and far too easy for an audit to expose your illegal business practices. Maybe I'm just too honest, but that's how I view your main premise above.
November 30, 2009 at 2:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Potato (Bob Jones) says...
The difference in construction is that your employees are all W2 employees. That means that as an employer you have to pay 50% of the employees Social Security tax, 50% of their Medicare tax, 100% of their Employment Security tax, and about 75% of their Industrial Insurance (which is actually just more tax). The end result is that to pay an employee $10 per hour actually costs about $17 per hour without considering accounting time. To pay an employee $25 per hour actually costs about $32 per hour without considering accounting time. So instead of paying $32 per hour, construction employers can pay $15 per hour (that is a major generalization...wages vary, and more illegal workers are getting better wages). The point is you can save money...risky, but money is the most important thing to a lot of people in the US. As for the extra income, it's pretty easy to find ways of deducting other income so it really isn't an issue. I would never pay any employee under the table, and never have, but it is very tempting. The big danger is that the worker is not covered with L&I so if there is an accident you will definitely get caught.
It's also important to note that there are many US citizens that are getting $15 per hour under the table in lieu of $25 per hour straight wages...it's not just illegal aliens who are cheating.
November 30, 2009 at 5:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
Good points, Bob. By the way, all agricultural workers are W2 employees also. I have heard of employers declaring employees as new hires after an accident has occurred. In other words, they operated under the radar until an accident forced them to suddenly be honest and put the employee on the payroll. Frankly, like you, I avoid this kind of nonsense all together because I figure it's just not worth the risk and someone somewhere will most likely be able to figure it out or an employee will talk and cause all kinds of problems for the employer. L&I will not turn in illegal aliens because it's not part of their job description. They will, however, go to bat for any and all employees in spite of their immigration status. At least that has been my understanding.
November 30, 2009 at 6:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BeenThere (John Smith) says...
"Stealing" jobs is a metaphorical use of the word "stealing". Same with medical services. Your propsed expansion of malum prohibitum makes the distinction meaningless.”
Only in your mind Norm, only in your mind. Go ask the person on unemployment. Oh, that’s right, you don’t care about our legal residents, only the illegal one.
“Actually, according to WTO and other agreements that the US and other OECD nations have vigorously pushed, the only thing not allowed to freely flow over borders is people; money, goods, and services can freely cross borders with minimal control by national governments.”
I didn’t know you were so naive as to why the US pushed so hard. Why pay someone in the US $20.00 an hour to make those shoes, shirts, pants, etc you wear when a company can pay a nickel an hour to have them made overseas. Opening the borders to allow people to “freely” come and go (or stay) is economic suicide unless we had a negative unemployment rate. Last I checked, we don’t.
Actually Bob, you have hit the nail on the head. Norm’s system drives the wage of the legal resident down because there is a huge amount of illegal people who are willing to work for less and off the books. But, Norm feels it ok for people to sneak across the border because they need to feed their family. What he has failed to answer is how the legal resident is suppose to feed their family and provide them a decent living when Norm’s buddies have taken away (stolen) their jobs or reduced the wages down to nothing. It forces them to look for work off the books just like the illegal aliens. It’s too bad Norm doesn’t have as much compassion for his fellow legal residents (assuming he is legal) that he does for the illegal aliens.
November 30, 2009 at 8:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )