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Medical marijuana dispute pits 1960s pop singer’s son against ‘the law’

Saturday, January 22, 2011

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John Novak of Wauconda leaves the marijuana-growing shed he has on his 10-acre property after tending to some of his plants. Armed with a medical marijuana card, he is fighting charges made against him in the summer during a drug raid where his plants were confiscated. A trial on the charges is scheduled in February in Okanogan.

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In addition to marijuana, John Novak grows houseplants in the marijuana-growing shed he converted from an old butchering building on his Wauconda property. He sells the houseplants at his nursery. He said state law prevents him from allowing someone to photograph his marijuana plants.

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John Novak of Wauconda says legalizing marijuana would cure all of the world’s problems.

Marijuana information clinic wafting its way through NCW

By K.C. Mehaffey

World staff writer

WENATCHEE — First Omak, now Wenatchee.

Best Medical Consultation of Spokane planned to be at the Red Lion in Wenatchee on Saturday to issue medical marijuana cards to patients who qualify.

The clinic came to Omak in November at the request of two medical marijuana patients who are facing charges for growing pot on their property. Okanogan County Prosecutor Karl Sloan said they were growing more plants than allowed by law.

The clinics, he said, are highly profitable ventures designed to make money, not treat patients.

“What may be a good and useful tool for people who are really sick — many people are abusing that, bottom line, for profit,” he said.

The doctor spends a few minutes with each patient, looking over their medical records to determine if they can legally smoke pot, and then authorizes those who qualify, he said. “If a doctor was doing that with Prozac, they would probably lose their license immediately,” Sloan said.

“Most of the medical marijuana certifications are originated by a very few doctors and clinics statewide, who are not a patient’s normal treating physician,” he said. “You don’t see many actual physicians recommending medical marijuana.”

Donn Moyer, spokesman for the state Department of Health, said the state does not track how many or which doctors issue medical marijuana cards, due to doctor-patient confidentiality. The state also does not know how many people have a medical marijuana card in Washington.

“A doctor-patient relationship is supposed to exist, and that takes more than 15 minutes in a hotel conference room,” he said. “The law was made by an initiative petition, and often those don’t take into account a lot of things, so that leaves them up to interpretation. Dispensaries are not legal either, but people are doing it,” he said.

He said marijuana is still illegal in Washington. The law only gives patients a legal defense if they are caught with marijuana.

Justin Pitts, a spokesman for Best Medical Consultation, said the clinics were set up in Omak and Wenatchee because many patients in rural areas can’t find a local doctor who will write medical marijuana authorization.

That’s not because other doctors don’t believe marijuana has any medical benefits, he said, but because they worry it could jeopardize federal funding they receive. Under federal law, marijuana is a Schedule 1 narcotic, meaning there are no medical uses for it.

“We’ve had referrals (from other doctors) because they don’t want to put their name on it,” he said.

Dr. David Weber, retiring chairman and CEO of the Wenatchee Valley Medical Center, said in an e-mail that he doesn’t think any of the medical center’s doctors are issuing medical marijuana cards. “There is too much controversy and uncertainly surrounding the topic for anyone to want to do so,” he wrote.

He said the medical center doesn’t know whether it would face any federal penalties if its doctors issued medical marijuana certifications, but it’s not worth the risk to find out.

Weber hasn’t sufficiently researched the medical uses of marijuana, or the risks of using it, to discuss those aspects, he said.

According to state law, people with a terminal illness, chronic pain, cancer, multiple sclerosis, Crohn’s disease, glaucoma and other diseases can be legally treated with marijuana.

Pitts said the clinic’s staff screens patients before they ever see the doctor to find out if they may have a condition that could be helped by marijuana.

Wenatchee Police Sgt. John Kruse said his agency had no plans for extra patrols Saturday, and did not anticipate any problems from the medical marijuana clinic.

“If they have a doctor who’s going to be issuing cards in accordance with the law, that’s their business,” he said.

K.C. Mehaffey: 997-2512

mehaffey@wenatcheeworld.com

OKANOGAN — John Novak is in a fight with the law over what he believes is his right to grow medical marijuana for himself and another medical marijuana patient at his remote Okanogan County home.

He’s hoping the battle doesn’t turn out the way it did for the guy in his dad’s hit song, “I fought the law.”

Novak, 45, says he is the son of the late Bobby Fuller, best known for the 1965 top-ten single with the familiar refrain that ends “and the law won.”

But in his case, Novak says, the law is on his side. If a judge doesn’t dismiss the criminal charges against him next week, he thinks a jury will see it his way when his case goes to trial Feb. 1.

In July, a drug task force raided his Wauconda home and confiscated 59 marijuana plants growing in a shop and greenhouse, along with dried marijuana, guns and growing equipment. He wasn’t arrested, and a week later, the Okanogan County Sheriff’s Office returned his guns. They would not give back his marijuana or growing equipment, so he sued to get his possessions returned.

Two months after the raid, he was charged in Okanogan County Superior Court with manufacturing marijuana and possession of drug paraphernalia.

Since age 14, Novak has suffered from temporal lobe epilepsy. He said marijuana dramatically reduces the occurrence of petite mal seizures, and eases the side effects from the prescription medication he takes for grand mal seizures.

Novak said a friend who had seizures recommended he try marijuana, and he told his physician, Dr. Ronald Schneeweiss at University of Washington’s Department of Family Medicine, to research and authorize a medical marijuana card for him in 2004.

“It’s changed my life,” he said. “I literally went from someone who was a hermit in an apartment in Seattle, and now I have 10 acres and own a business. I have a life,” he said.

In addition to growing marijuana for medicinal purposes, Novak grows garden plants, trees and shrubs to sell through his business, Wauconda Gardens.

For patients with certain conditions, medical marijuana has been a legal defense for possessing pot in Washington since voters passed Initiative 692 in 1998. In 2008, the state defined the 60-day supply which patients are allowed to have as 24 dried ounces and 15 plants.

Novak said the task force found 59 marijuana plants on his property in July because he and two other medical marijuana patients were living at his house at the time of the raid. He said he was the designated provider for one other patient. By his calculations, four separate patients should be allowed to grow up to 60 plants for their own medical use.

“I was one plant under” the legal limit, he said.

Karl Sloan, Okanogan County’s prosecutor, sees it differently.

“Under the statute, you can be a provider, but you can’t use the marijuana” for yourself, he said. The statute also says you can only be a provider for one patient at any one time, but doesn’t specify whether that includes yourself.

Sloan said problems with the law arise when people try to merge more than one medical marijuana authorization, because there’s no distinction to determine which marijuana belongs to whom.

The state Department of Health — which answers frequently-asked questions about medical marijuana on its website — is unclear about the issue. A question asking, “Can I be a patient and a designated provider?” is answered, “The law does not say that a patient may or may not also be a designated provider. It does say that a designated provider may not consume a qualifying patient’s medical marijuana.”

Sloan said some medical marijuana patients are trying to form cooperatives or start dispensaries to grow and distribute marijuana to patients. But the law clearly does not allow those, he said.

Two bills have been introduced this session in the state’s House and Senate to clarify the medical marijuana regulations: Senate Bill 5073 and House Bill 1100. They would require the state Department of Agriculture to regulate growing of marijuana, and give the state Department of Health the authority to license medical marijuana dispensaries for distribution.

Sgt. Brad Wilson, who heads the North Central Washington Narcotics Task Force which raided Novak’s home, said he’ll follow whatever the law says, and right now Washington does not allow people to operate dispensaries or grow for more than one medical marijuana patient at a time. There are no provisions for where medical marijuana patients are supposed to get marijuana, other than growing it themselves, or finding a designated provider who can grow for only one person.

Wilson said his task force found several people with medical marijuana cards growing pot last summer, and those in compliance were not arrested if they were operating within the law. “If people are legitimately in possession of their letter or card, and are growing within the parameters of the law, we’re not bothering those people,” he said. “But there are people saying, ‘I’m growing for two or three other people,’ and we know the law says you can’t do that.” Wilson said he believes those growers are actually selling the marijuana they grow for a profit, which is clearly illegal.

But Novak said he’s no drug dealer.

Wearing a T-shirt that proclaims, “Legalize Cannabis in 2011,” Novak said he used to hide the fact that he uses and grows marijuana for medication. But after the raid in July, he started being open about his use, and all of the benefits he sees in hemp, including food, fiber and fuel.

He’s hoping his criminal case will clarify whether a medical marijuana patient can also be a provider for someone else.

“If me going public like this keeps even one other person from having to go through this, it’ll be worth it,” he said.

K.C. Mehaffey: 997-2512

mehaffey@wenatcheeworld.com

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    2 years, 3 months ago

I believe that any plant on our earth has a right to exist. Who are we to play god with mother nature?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

by that theory everything that we have or make or produce comes from this planet. unless we are importing secret chemicals from outer space. So shouldn't cocaine also be allowed, and meth I mean all the chemicals in meth are from this planet naturally. However I do agree its time to tax and legalize weed. But certain arguments as to why are puzzling to me.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

You're seriously arguing that meth is just as natural as the dried flowers of a plant?

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Norm     2 years, 3 months ago

"Both the Columbia River Drug Task Force and the North Central Washington Drug Task Force are a bunch of low life scum who enjoy watching disabled people suffer."

There are two possibilities here:

  1. You truly believe in medical marijuana and are too much of a fool to see that this kind of hyperbole discredits your cause, or

  2. You oppose medical marijuana and are pretending to be a fool who supports it in order to discredit it.

Which is it?

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Norm     2 years, 3 months ago

Here's the thing, Kyle: calling LE a bunch of names does nothing to advance the cause you're advocating; all it does is give your opponents an easy target, an unreasonable statement to characterize the rest of us with. I disagree with the illegalization of mj as much as you do, that's why it particularly bothers me when you give others this lever to use against us. Sure, there's undoubtedly a few bad apples in LE, just as there are anywhere, but for the most part, they're just regular people doing their job - which sometimes involves putting their own lives at risk to protect all of us. In fact, perhaps our strongest allies are the increasing number of LE people who are advocating for legalization.

It reminds me of the "Battle in Seattle" over WTO a few years ago, where the overwhelming majority of protesters were peaceful, respectful citizens from all walks of life, with rational reasons for opposing WTO, but a handful of young idiots in black ran around smashing windows in Starbucks and such. Obviously, this made for a much better TV story, so the tiny minority of violent fools ended up being seen as "representatives" of the larger group of peaceful demonstrators.

Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_pr...

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highlander420     2 years, 3 months ago

Thank you, K.C.! Great job and very well researched.

I have the greatest respect for police officers and military. It's a thankless job that I can never hope to be a part of because of this disability. My respect reaches to all who serve their fellow countrymen, including people in office.

Mr. Sloan has a political opinion about medical cannabis, patients and the doctors that write their recommendations. Humanitarian compassion is the foundation on which the medical cannabis laws were written and passed by the votors of Washington State, not politics.

“Most of the medical marijuana certifications are originated by a very few doctors and clinics statewide, who are not a patient’s normal treating physician,” he said. “You don’t see many actual physicians recommending medical marijuana.”

If Mr. Sloan would take the time to go out and speak with patients and doctors, he would know that the big hospitals and clinics in Okanogan and Ferry county have RESTRICTED their doctors from writing medical cannabis cards. I went to two different doctors out here and they both wanted to write one for me, but could not. And that appears to be backed up by what Mr. Weber, CEO of the Wenatchee Valley Medical Center states.

As for making profits on cannabis, I don't see Mr. Sloan's office going after oxycotin and other prescription drug abusers, their doctors and the companies that supply them. Don't we as a society see that we allow pharmacies and pharmaceutical companies to make HUGE profits at the expense of patients?

How many people do prescription drugs kill every year?

Tobacco - 435,000 Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity - 365,000 Alcohol - 85,000 Adverse Reactions to Prescription Drugs - 32,000 All Illicit Drug Use, Direct and Indirect - 17,000 Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs Such As Aspirin - 7,600 Marijuana - 0

This begs the question, just who are our authority figures really working for? Why are tax dollars being wasted arresting and prosecuting the sick and dying?

We are supposed to protect the weakest in our society, not reduce them to second class citizenship, forced to carry papers everywhere they go, subject to search, seizure and arrest on a whim. If the state has their way, we'll even have to register. Does this sound familiar to anyone out there?

Mr. Sloan, did you or the county in any way use our plants and our medicine to boost your statistics for the Federal Government? Will my arrest and the items seized from our property in 2010 be used in order to obtain more police funding?

By the way, I never said legalizing marijuana would cure all of the world’s problems. It would sure alleviate many of them, however!

CANNABIS HEMP = FOOD, PAPER, FUEL, PLASTICS, BUILDING MATERIALS, FABRICS, MEDICINE, RECREATION, JOBS FOR AMERICANS

-John Novak from Wauconda

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prplsmrf     2 years, 3 months ago

"Is this guy hurting someone else by growing cannabis on his property? No. Is he providing medicine for himself and others that require it? Yes. I'd like to know where in the Constitution it says you're not allowed to grow your own medicine, because I don't remember seeing it. Cannabis is a PLANT THAT GROWS IN THE DIRT, and is not the same as METHAMPHETAMINE, which is what the drug task force should really be focusing on instead of trespassing on private land and taking medicine from disabled people. ... That said, I hope Mr. Novak fights and wins in court."

I liked this much of Kyle's comment. The rest does not support anything but further separation from what a civilian/government relationship is supposed to be. I don't agree with the some actions the Task Forces choose to make. I severely think there should be more attention focused on gang activity and actually manufactured killers like meth...

Good Luck Mr. Novak! I hope you win your case and have a reason to change the song! :)

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Norm     2 years, 3 months ago

"We are no better than dogs to these people, which is why I choose not to recognize the government as it exists today."

Then stop using the internet, roads, bridges, electricity, airports, etc. - and don't buy anything that was delivered on roads. Our government is far from perfect, in fact its the worst possible system - except for all the others that humans have devised since the dawn of time. "Refusing to recognize" the govt. may be lots of fun and allow you to strike a pose, but it does absolutely no good. Get involved and work to change the things you don't like - or move to Somalia, the one place on earth you can go to that has no government.

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Chuck     2 years, 3 months ago

You mean the very same Somalia that the US and UN paid Ethiopia to invade and have been bombing periodically ever since? The same country that during their stateless (and admiteddly breif) period of relative calm grew at a faster rate than the other African nations, despite being one of the poorest from the get-go? The same tiny nation that spontaneously and loosely organized a legal system based on their own tribal customs?

Please don't insult us by using a country that is occupied by the US and the UN as an example to make baseless claims of the alleged failures of libertarianism.

Perhaps if the Somalies were left alone to realize the value of PRIVATE property they would take care of what they own. But if nobody owns property, it never gets cared for.

That's hardly a bastion of libertarian idealism.

But since you want more reasonable restriction and enlightened regulation you may wish to check out China; where the socialist government is free to enforce enlightened policy on all, with none of those pesky individual liberties, and no opposition to block them.

Personally, I much prefer the old saw of "let every man sweep in front of his own step and soon the whole world will be clean" but only because my personal default position is that given a choice, the average person, acting in his/her own best self interest, will invarably do more good than harm.

To insist on regulating the private lives of society at large, one's default position on the matter must invaraibly be the reverse.

So what if your fellow man wants to smoke a joint? Don't you have areas of greater concern closer to your home?

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BHS06     2 years, 3 months ago

Well Kyle, if you don't like living here, fortunately, you have the option of packing your bags and leaving this country. You should think about it.

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highlander420     2 years, 3 months ago

"I'm growing pot in the hot sun I fought the law and we all won..."

Thanks, Tami! We really appreciate all the support this community has given us. We'll get that song changed!

-John Novak Wauconda

PS - I started a BLOG here on Wenatchee World called, "The Highlander 420 Report". Be sure to check it out!

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OK_County_Native     2 years, 3 months ago

"Sloan said some medical marijuana patients are trying to form cooperatives or start dispensaries to grow and distribute marijuana to patients. But the law clearly does not allow those, he said."

Blockquote

Mr. Sloan- apparently do no get out of the Okanogan Valley very often. Spokane and Seattle both (that IS in the state of Washington and does have the same laws... if my memory is correct) have SEVERAL public dispensaries that are in store fronts that act as collectives for Medical Marijuana Patients there has been some push back from local law enforcement but somehow the dispensaries continue, I guess the law is on their side!

Now then, Mr. Sloan instead of focusing on ill people trying to live "normal" productive lives thanks to an all natural substance with zero long term or short term side effects (yea its true do the research)... how about you start hunting down EVERY METH LAB, dealer, user and tweaker in your jurisdiction. After that happens go ahead chase down every child molester and pervert that is reported to you and actually PROSECUTE them! Then once you have them rounded up and off the streets you can start going after illegal immigrants, once you have them on the run I would appreciate welfare fraud be investigated and prosecuted as well. I guess what I am saying is how about you invest the same amount of time and resources into the rampant illegal activities taking place in Okanogan county that ACTUALLY negatively impacts the community, tax payer and children. Once that is done you can go after people that Washington tax payers and VOTERS (you remember them??) have allowed to grow harvest and use natural plant matter in the privacy of their own homes. Until then YOU sir are not doing your job and if you are not doing your job, its time to find someone else who will!

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    2 years, 3 months ago

I definitely think that The police should focus much more on Meth in this Valley. If they want to arrest some random kids/adults using marijuana illegally, then fine. But going out of your way and raiding a house where 2-3 disabled people are living (that is my understanding), that is just not okay. Meth is where their focus needs to be, METH is what tears people's lives apart. Not Marijuana! Go Novak!

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    2 years, 3 months ago

I agree. I think that the efforts should be placed much more heavily on Meth use.

Someone also said that overdosing on marijuana is not possible and that got me thinking---I don't recall ever reading that someone OD'd on marijuana. I think if you smoked too much you would just fall asleep. I Googled it, and I found that there has never been a documented case of fatal overdose. Granted, you can become addicted to marijuana, as I have known a couple people who are. So there are down sides to it. However, there are other drugs out there that are dangerous not only to the user, but to the public they come in contact with. My point is that LE should focus more on these drugs then they do on pot.

And, if it is beneficial medically for some, than so be it. What other illegal drug out there has this benefit? I can't think of any.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Justareader says: "And, if it is beneficial medically for some, than so be it. What other illegal drug out there has this benefit? I can't think of any."

Well, I'm not really against MJ use per se, but you really need to do a lot more thinking about your statement, Justareader. Start with all the opiates that are out there and prescribed by physicians, then go from that point. There are many drugs that are illegal for possession or use except by prescription of a licensed physician, that have medical benefits.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Alcohol has medical uses besides just as a topical anti-bacterial or cooling a fever (highly evaporative, so cools quickly...). For some people, a small glass of wine a day is beneficial. Of course, alcohol is also the most abused drug in America. The point is that any drug can be used properly, or abused. I don't believe it's reasonable to take away an adult's right to responsibly use any substance based on the fact that some people might abuse it. (Similarly, I don't believe that our 2nd Amendment rights should be relinquished based on the fact that some people might abuse it.)

"If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." --Thomas Jefferson

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SickandTired     2 years, 3 months ago

Hey your fighting a good fight Novak, keep smilin' man

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mountainwomen     2 years, 3 months ago

We're behind you 100%

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greenwomanoftheriver     2 years, 3 months ago

Kudos to you for standing up for your rights! You have my support!

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morgan     2 years, 3 months ago

The Okanogan County prosecutor is exceeding his authority when he interprets the law on his, beliefs by adding comments about the written medical marijuana law that dosen't exist in the text of the written law.

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morgan     2 years, 3 months ago

Karl Sloan, Keep reading the R.C.W. 69.51A080 Rules Adopted By Health Dept. The language clearly states, the direction in which, the state ,is to guide ,encourage or set forth a safe, secure, affordable alternative medical distribution system for medical cannabis patients of washington state and thats just what the good people of washington are doing because it is a law of compassion to those of us who have terminal or debilitating pain .According to current statistics each dispensary in california employs another 100# People directly or indirectly .Thats a lot of jobs if you multiply x 90 known dispensaries or collectives already operating 7 days a week in this fair state of washington, I agree Karl Sloan should get out more often especially if he wants to be re-elected.The worst side effect of cannabis is jail ! Keep an open mind...

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Why is Karl Sloan wasting my money on this? Does he really believe he's going to get an Okanogan County jury to convict under these circumstances? Good luck on that one, Karl. I know you drug warriors want to keep your jobs and all, but you're going to have to come to the realization that We The People, the citizens and jurors of Washington State, are no longer going to convict for marijuana charges. Call it Nullification, call it Common Sense, call it whatever you like, but we're not going to spend billions of dollars arresting, prosecuting and imprisoning ($30,000+ per year per inmate) our citizens for possessing or growing an herb. Not in this economic and political climate. Those days are over.

So Karl, you're going to have to get a new gig. But don't worry, there seems to be plenty of real crimes (things which are intrinsically criminal) to keep you busy, and you may even find it more rewarding and fulfilling than fighting a war against disabled patients committing an imaginary "crime".

Drop the charges, Karl. It's not going to fly.

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OK_County_Native     2 years, 3 months ago

What Sloan is trying to do is set a precedent. If he can get a single conviction out of this then he can have legal backing to harass every single medical marijuana patient in the county, then the state. The voters enacted this law because WE felt it was the correct thing to do. Unfortunately the law was written loosely and while it gave an affirmative defense for those who are caught treating their medical condition, it also left wide open gray areas such as this one to allow sleezy prosecutors seeking publicity to target peaceful and otherwise law abiding citizens.

The tactics used against John and his family were nothing short of brutal. His home was raided and his wife and young son had automatic weapons pointed at them. He is now forced to fight a legal battle that will cost thousands of dollars and Sloan is using OUR tax dollars to attempt to "legislate from the bench".

This entire case is an abomination. It is against everything our country stands for. I believe, this violation of civil rights came in an election year under the veil of enforcing the law. It is blindingly apparent that Mr. Sloan does not KNOW the law or has no respect for it. I hope John sues the county back to the stone age, Mr. Sloan its time to find a new job. I hear the Omak Home Depot is about to have a shakeup in management, maybe you should apply there.

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Reptoid     2 years, 3 months ago

I just had a fantastic telephone call with John Novak where the sharing of love, liberty and sovereignty was mutual, and as a budding hemp farmer (the plant's cousin) I fully support the right for humans to be able to heal themselves on their own private property. That's the bottom line. It's an amazing plant with fantastic healing properties and without any processing other than making a nice tea or making a small puff of smoke with it can virtually eliminate seizures in someone who used to suffer from them. Anyone who sees what John's doing as "bad" is a total loon who stinks of ulterior motives (to bust the chops of those formerly known as "debunkers"). smiles

We're growing hemp in the near future as a replacement for oil and gasoline for your CURRENT automobile. All the science has already been proven all over other parts of the USA and Brazil. If you are tired of costly and deadly wars for oil and great permanent environmental disasters like the BP (Bleeding Planet) oil "spill" then hemp-ethanol is the solution, literally. It's liquid sunshine that enables you to drive your current automobile 98% pollution free even on cloudy days and without hardly any modification to your current car. No new cars need to be developed or purchased (who can afford that these days anyway with a hefty $80,000 price tag for some electric vehicles that run on whatever fuel is burnt to create power inside your walls at home anyway?! And what does everyone do with their old cars anyway if no one will buy them or use them anymore?) - and thus we're not adding anything at all to the current carbon foot-print what so ever. In fact we're cleaning the air by our plants physically REMOVING CO2 from the atmosphere. It gets better and better what these amazing plants can actually do - and we're no different than Henry Ford and his first cars which ran on ethanol (pre-Rockefeller-prohibition through the "Women's Christian Temperance Movement") and had a hemp composite body material that was stronger than steel and as flexible as fiber-glass.

More history, facts and future production: www.HempPermaculture.com - Yes we are open to investors soon. See all our shared videos on our website and be amazed what hemp can actually do and what we have in mind. Just stay away from any propaganda fearmongering from the oil-mongers who are terrified of losing their monopoly on the planet.

I am proud of the editors of this publication to print John's story and to keep the discussion regarding the truth of these amazing plants alive. Thank-you, kindly. :>

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Cuervo Morado, you wrote: "Anyone who sees what John's doing as "bad" is a total loon who stinks of ulterior motives (to bust the chops of those formerly known as "debunkers"). smiles We're growing hemp in the near future as a replacement for oil and gasoline for your CURRENT automobile."

You're growing hemp in the "near" future for my automobile you say? Answer me this: How long is a rope? Hint: the rope need not be made of hemp.

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Reptoid     2 years, 3 months ago

I already answered you at our website. It's FREE, and we're not against you doing this yourself as well - that's how generous and wonderful we are because that's how generous and wonderful this planet is. :> Enjoy cleaning up your planet while liberating yourselves.

Appono astos.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

"Appono astos."

I wouldn't expect anything less from a Purple Crow, lol!

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Appono astos means "we are against cunning and deceit" - of course you should not expect any less from anyone with honour and love who enjoys the liberty of others. As for poking fun at my name and having had it all my life pretty much, I'm used to that - no big deal. Kinda fun actually. "Caw caw caw" (spoken in indigo flame) :>

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    2 years, 3 months ago

You Canucks crack me up with your esoteric attempts at sanskrit. Next thing you know, you'll be asking all of us to join ALCOHOLICS UNANIMOUS, lol!

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Wayoutthere     2 years, 3 months ago

Keep goin bud stand up for all of us who have been prosecuted for wrongdoing.. I have a medical card myself and was prosecuted for doing such and I quote from the DA I had, I dont care what you claim I know you were using it for profit.. So in the process they get me fired from my job, Take all my money from my savings claiming it was for illegal usage, accuse my children of selling it for me and proceeded to harass my wife till I finally just plead out. Yea whatever the Sheriff and Prosecutors of Douglas County, Not to mention the rest of the state, just dont want it legalized because they want to keep their new cars and toys. But to go around like wannabee cowboys thinking that they know all is wrong study up LE cause the time is now keep going bud I for one am proud that someone is standing up for all of us .......

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Tim     2 years, 3 months ago

POT HEADS OF THE WORLD UNITE, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT THE MUNCHIES!!!

Hey, as long as you're at it, let's legalize Nitrous Oxide. I think it could be used medically for stressed out fathers of teens. And as far as letting plants be grown how about some psychedelic mushrooms, for old people who forgot how to dream.

If we tried hard enough we could find some drug that would help everyone escape reality. The greater good is Not served by legalizing pot. Whatever is in mj that eases the discomfort of cancer patients or others with seizures could be extracted I'm sure or is it just the mind numbing that makes them feel better.

I'm all for finding comfort for those who suffer but government legalization would be would be the moral equivalent of the USSR providing all the Vodka to their people. A constituency on mind numbing chemicals is much easier to handle. Producing apathy in the masses is the best way to control them.

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girlfawkes     2 years, 3 months ago

"Whatever is in mj that eases the discomfort of cancer patients or others with seizures could be extracted I'm sure or is it just the mind numbing that makes them feel better."

Do you have something against terminal cancer patients numbing their dying minds? A wretchedly painful death is not more noble, and besides- doctors have no problem prescribing mind numbing doses of morphine and oxycontin to the terminally ill masses, which has the added downside of being very desirous to the street element and kills thousands of recreational users yearly. At least with marijuana some semblance of normal function can be preserved, and recreational users are not dying in droves.

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highlander420     2 years, 3 months ago

NO DEATHS FROM CANNABIS! Can't say that about nitrous, mushrooms, marinol and vodka! See the difference yet? Probably not.

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Reptoid     2 years, 3 months ago

What you need to "extract" from the plant is called "THC", and the easiest and most cost effective means is to smoke it or make a nice tea with the flowers of the female. It's that simple.

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PeaceJulie     2 years, 3 months ago

@Tim Perhaps you should do a google search on this subject before ignorantly chiming in about the chemical properties of mj. There are hundreds of active compounds in mj acting together to produce the effects. One has been isolated and reproduced. It's called "marinol" and does not produce the same medical results as the natural plant. It does often produce heavy intoxication in many patients rendering them useless and unproductive. It rarely gives AIDS patients and cancer patients with massive nausea and vomitting any relief. It's a pretty useless pill actually. It's commonly known in the sick community that it's most certainly NOT the mind numbing that makes them feel better.

Add to that the absolute fact our national drug laws have prevented any useful research on the drug for about 80 years now.

Add to that the fact that there is no money to be made by big pharm and you will never see a pill that gives the same medical value as mj. Sick people are sick today. A pill 20 years down the road is useless to them. These people have a hard enough battle to fight without the need for the uneducated nonsense of your post.

Your "USSR" analogy fails the test.. It's not the same and USSR is gone. It's clear what decade you are living in.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Oh man, come on. Why???

I'm done reading these comments as now it is going to be all about the bible and God talk. I get so flippen tired of reading that on so many of these articles. It gets really dang old!

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    2 years, 3 months ago

I didn't bring it up. This is how it ususally starts. I amke a comment and someone has to attack God, just for me!

But sinse THEY brought it up, I have got to answer their issues...Well, don't I?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Tim---I know you didn't. :)

And yes, it would make me want to reply as well.

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Tim     2 years, 3 months ago

I'm going to keep my anwers brief.

"Do you have something against terminal cancer patients ..."
No, girl, I don't; I never even brought up the issue!

"NO DEATHS FROM CANNABIS!"
Well, Highlander, it still doesn't mean getting stoned all the time is a good thing, does it?

"Tim Lamb places his faith in Man above his faith in god, but here it is for all to see."
Where! Where!!, I didn't wee it. Where did Time Lamb say that! He didn't!

"@Tim Perhaps you should do a google search on this subject before ignorantly chiming in about the chemical properties of mj."
Peace julie (she isn't very peaceful when you challenge her pot) I made no claims, I asked what it was in pot that made it useful!

"You can't really be this ignorant, can you, Tim?"
And you cam be quite rude for no reason. Is it legal to have a tank next to your coach, I don't think so.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

"NO DEATHS FROM CANNABIS!" Well, Highlander, it still doesn't mean getting stoned all the time is a good thing, does it?

Hi Tim,

It doesn't mean it is a "bad" thing either. No herb is for everyone. Some of us don't have a choice. I would rather be stoned all the time than have seizures any day.

Here's the bottom line for me. I went from having roughly anywhere between 60-120 seizures every single day from 1979 until 2003. I could not even get out to go to the grocery store without getting lost in the meat department or on the walk back home. Cannabis use reduces that number down to only a few a day, giving me a life I have not known since age 14.

The bigger point is nobody deserves jail time for using this plant.

-John Novak (Wauconda)

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Well Hi John! It sounds to me like you have as good a reason to use it as anyone. I do think the medical use is abused but the system always is and I wouldn't take it away from those who need it just because others abuse it. However, if you are helping those who don't have a medical need for it to get it then your rights should be taken away. I'm not accusing you, just saying...

I hope you are found innocent and you live on free and in good health. Blessings on you John!

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    2 years, 3 months ago

So why didn't you say that to begin with? Was it that hard?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

That, my friend, is a pretty powerful way for a mere plant to aid a fellow denizen of this planet.

I sure wish I could make the public understand how badly they've been duped regarding cannabis. But until someone experiences something like you have, the years upon years of violent government anti-cannabis rhetoric seem to hold sway. And even if we can convince the people--and we have made major strides recently, no one can deny that--we still have to move the massive U.S. bureaucracy, which is as close to an immovable object as one might care to imagine. It is a daunting task, but we are in the right, and we will win. Eventually. It may take awhile, but eventually logic and reason will win the day.

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Reptoid     2 years, 3 months ago

Legal drugs designed by "Big Pharma" cost so much most "patients" can't even afford them, unless they go to Cuba where the exact same ones cost hundreds of dollars less, for some "strange" reason. Not that different than France. More people die from "Big Pharma" drugs (legal) than marijuana. The science does not lie and can be re-tested INDEPENDENTLY (not by the LYING Big Pharma) time and time again. Clearly there's another agenda at work here and either people eventually figure that out or they remain blind, deaf and dumb all their lives never progressing forward at all in any meaningful productive way. Now shall we get started on "side effects"? Ever seen just ONE TV commercial for "legal drugs"? Just ONE? A marijuana commercial's warnings would be simple: Don't drive or operate heavy machinery, keep a snack handy, drink some water, play some relaxing uplifting music, effects pass swiftly and you're right back to work." Sound better or worse than your current billions of legal drugs out there that thousands die from every year? Science does not lie, but Big Pharma always does - they want their kids to go to college too. Follow the money. Who benefits?

And that's not all: www.HempPermaculture.com <--- Even a 9 year old child can explain this, and they do. (see the video for yourself).

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    2 years, 3 months ago

So you're saying it's illegal to have a tank by your easy chair, I thought so!

(Isn't that what I said?)

"Who told you cannabis was good? God did."

Suddenly you defend the word of God? You waste my time!

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    2 years, 3 months ago

No, it's perfectly legal to have a tank by your chair, and to take puffs off it. It's illegal to SELL it for the purpose of doing so, however. Read, Tim, read!

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Tim     2 years, 3 months ago

"Your "USSR" analogy fails the test.. "

I wasn't sure if they did it after the collapse of the USSR so I referred back to that time. I think government support of intoxicants is wrong. I don't think the government should be in the alcohol business either. I really don't care if people use pot, that isn't my point. I smoked it years ago, I know what it does. I also know it is many times more potent than years ago.. I also did not protest medical use of MJ, I said it should not be made legal for general use. It's easily grown for private use (I did that too when younger) and the fines have been much reduced from when I did it. I just feel if it's going to be used for medical purposes it does need to be regulated. Am I not entitled to that opinion. I don't think God cares if some one smokes pot any more than He cares if some has a glass of wine, So my Christian perspective is not an issue.

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Tim     2 years, 3 months ago

I don't think alcohol or pot or ANY intoxicants are good for people, but used within reason the harm is minimal. I think Christians should avoid it (MJ) because we are taught in scripture to obey the law of the land as an example.

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Reptoid     2 years, 3 months ago

Pagans (even children) were burned alive by Christians (The Inquisition) for having knowledge about herbs such as marijuana. "The law" against marijuana came from Christians, not from the formerly free country dwellers. Liberty is self-sovereign, not a global force imposed upon others with a Bible in one hand and a blade in the other. History does not lie about these facts.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

"i wanted to share my opinion on the fact that a highly refined drug is far more harmful/dangerous."

This is a common misconception. Actually, stronger cannabis means people smoke way less, which is better for them. Drug companies spend billions to make their products the purest, and with good reason.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

That is ridiculous! I am not a pot smoker either, but I have tried it before and I didn't find it to be in the same class as the harsher drugs. Now, granted, I can't say that from personal experience because I haven't tried other drugs, but the stories I have heard about meth, heroin, and crack far outrank any story I have ever heard about pot. I have been around people who have done pot and people who have done meth, and the meth users scared me. That drug is nasty, and it should be classified as a schedule 1 while pot should be moved to a lesser rating.

I wonder if this is an old schedule rating and since we now have harsher drugs, it needs to be re-evaluated.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Meth has been around since WWII. The scheduling system began with the Controlled Substances Act of 1970. Ever since then, many intelligent people have argued passionately to have it at least moved to schedule II. Here is a portion of one such plea:

"In strict medical terms marijuana is far safer than many foods we commonly consume. For example, eating ten raw potatoes can result in a toxic response. By comparison, it is physically impossible to eat enough marijuana to induce death.'

"Marijuana, in its natural form, is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within a supervised routine of medical care." --Drug Enforcement Administration's [DEA] Chief Administrative Law Judge, Francis L. Young - (September 6, 1988)

And still, 23 years later, no movement by government toward anything close to resembling sanity. No, instead we get gems like this one from Darryl Gates, a conservative christian, a Republican, and the founder of DARE (Drug Abuse Resistance Education):

"Casual drug users should be taken out and shot." --Darryl Gates, Founder of DARE

This is a matter of public record, because he stated this before congress. 110 Million Americans--more than one in three--should be taken out and shot, according to Darryl Gates. And this is who you choose to "educate" your children? America, how stupid can you be?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

And unfortunately, people take in the government rhetoric hook, line and sinker, and go along with the demonization of a wide swath of the American public--110 million Americans, more than one in three. It's disgusting. It has devastated America.

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Tim     2 years, 3 months ago

I believe the penalty for possession has been greatly reduced since the eighties when I used it. I think it's classified that way because it is so prevalent and easy to grow. I am glad to see them bust the big operations where it is manufactured for illegal use and often sold to minors. I think thats another reason it's considered such a threat, it's so easily obtained by minors.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

"I think thats another reason it's considered such a threat, it's so easily obtained by minors."

Think, man, think! WHY is it so easily obtained by minors? Because it's illegal. What could we possibly do to alleviate that? Legalize and regulate. Stop punishing all adults because some children and some adults make bad decisions. It's not fair to the ones who make good decisions. Instead, punish only those who would sell to children. This focuses our efforts at that which causes the most harm, instead of using a shotgun effect against everyone, thereby costing us considerably less than our current strategy, whilst not producing nearly as many innocent victims as our current strategy.

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gizmodee     2 years, 3 months ago

Yes because drug dealers don't ID!

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Pot is downright scary! Just look at what it can do to you!

http://reason.com/assets/mc/jsullum/2011_01/reefer-madness.jpg

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Play faster, Mav, play faster!

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    2 years, 3 months ago

I think I need a bigger sandbox with better grow lights!

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    2 years, 3 months ago

No one believes old propaganda spin doctoring any more - not even the new stuff gets past many people today. This post gets a fail. Their days are over. It's laughable material used for humour value only these days. :> See? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBRnLs... The UK pop group "U2" loved this sense of humour so much they teamed up and created "Zoo TV". Reefer madness is a joke and obvious failed military psychological operation. Heheheh. Groovy beat, man.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Mav was only kidding.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

I think the purple Canuck is still trying to figure out my sense of humour.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Probably... you are just text on a screen somewhere. Sarcasm was never meant for text mode communications unless you are a professional writer. :>

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Man, marijuana isn't "addicting". I mean who in their right mind would think that? If it were legal, kids wouldn't be around it as much...... Why is government 'maligning the people who choose to use god's precious gift'? I mean how could a few 'plants' hurt anyone? . They're just plants that are, uh.......sent from Heaven...yeah. Put right here on this earth for ALL TO.............................just sec........(gurgle,gurgle..............ehe,EHE,coughcough)....................................uh....what was I saying? .........pizZA

1:00 burns me

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Experts Rate Problem Substances

Dr. Jack E. Henningfield of the National Institute on Drug Abuse and Dr. Neal L. Benowitz of the University of California at San Francisco ranked six substances based on five problem areas.

Withdrawal: Presence and severity of characteristic withdrawal symptoms.

Reinforcement: A measure of the substance's ability, in human and animal tests, to get users to take it again and again, and in preference to other substances.

Tolerance: How much of the substance is needed to satisfy increasing cravings for it, and the level of stable need that is eventually reached.

Dependence: How difficult it is for the user to quit, the relapse rate, the percentage of people who eventually become dependent, the rating users give their own need for the substance and the degree to which the substance will be used in the face of evidence that it causes harm.

Intoxication: Though not usually counted as a measure of addiction in itself, the level of intoxication is associated with addiction and increases the personal and socIal damage a substance may do.

1 = Most serious 6 = Least serious

I couldn't paste the charts because they don't format properly, so go check them out here:

http://www.tfy.drugsense.org/tfy/addictvn.htm

You will find that as far as addictiveness goes, cannabis comes out about the same as coffee, and is nowhere in the ballpark of legal drugs like alcohol and tobacco. But hey, why let a few pesky facts get in the way of your stand-up routine?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

WW - How would I go about making something post in a monospaced font so that charts would align and format properly? Is it possible?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Iam Right, it's pretty clear where you stand on the broader issue of legalization but I'm just curious where you stand when it comes to the details since that's where the "devil" usually is.

For example, do you think that marijuana use should be restricted to medical use only or do you think that it should be available to anybody who wants it? Along that same line, do you think there should be an age limit on it like there is on alcohol? Do you think the government should regulate and tax it like they do alcohol? Do you think that there should be restrictions on manufacturing it like there is on moonshine alcohol? Do you think there should be penalties for driving under the influence of pot like there is for alcohol or other drugs? Do you think that there should be penalties for growing it on wilderness land where native vegatation is stripped away, streams are diverted for irrigation, chemicals (sometimes illegal) are used for fertilizer, illegal aliens are used for tending the crops etc etc etc?

I don't disagree with some of the major points you make but it would be interesting to know where you stand on a few of the finer points.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

I'll answer that, Ferd. I believe every American is entitled to poison their bodies with whatever substance they wish to use. If they break a law whilst under the influence, let the law do it's job. We're allowed to eat fatty foods, smoke cigarettes, and drive cars; all of which are inherently unsafe and put us at personal risk of injury or death. The government has no business telling me which activites I can or can't engage in as long as that activity doesn't hurt anyone else. The End.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Well Egirl, I like your thinking. Using your criteria, we should be able to do away with the FDA in it's entirety. There is obviously no need for that department as long as we are allowed "to poison their (our) bodies with whatever substance they (we) wish to use". That should save a few bucks in our next federal budget.

I wonder if maybe that is the point Ferd was trying to make? What was it again? "For every action there is an . . . ."

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    2 years, 3 months ago

" chemicals (sometimes illegal) are used for fertilizer,"

What would you consider to be some examples of illegal chemical fertilizers?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Can't answer that. All I know is that some of the articles I've read & documentaries I've seen say that often times chemical fertilizers are brought from Mexico that may not be legal in the US.

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robbins     2 years, 3 months ago

Personal attacks in this thread must cease, lest comments be locked and user accounts deleted. Many comments have already been removed, and the violators chastised by direct message. Final warning.

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Tim     2 years, 3 months ago

"Drugs or alcohol suspected in two weekend crashes, one fatal " When we see headlines like this it's hard to accept the idea that MJ is 100% harmless. Anything mind altering is dangerous when abused and pot is as abused as any drug. Many thing are useful and good and "God Given" as medicine but when abused become harmful or even deadly.

ALL THINGS IN MODERATION! (but even then only if you can handle them)

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Reptoid     2 years, 3 months ago

"Drugs" = which ones? "Alcohol" = Nuff said. "Or" = propaganda fearmongering attempting to link drugs into a POSSIBLY alcohol related accident. Nothing conclusive yet, but it goes to press just the same. Spot the pattern of fearmongering propaganda and you beat the lies to the punch every time.

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Steve_Ahroo     2 years, 3 months ago

"When the President does it, that means that it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon

it's just a matter of time . . .

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    2 years, 3 months ago

For example, do you think that marijuana use should be restricted to medical use only or do you think that it should be available to anybody who wants it? Along that same line, do you think there should be an age limit on it like there is on alcohol?

I believe it should be available to any mentally competent person over 21 years of age.

Do you think the government should regulate and tax it like they do alcohol?

Definitely. Absolutely. Unequivocally. Yes.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

So, you are in favor of some newly created governmental agency that would administer mental competancy tests and give approval/denial for cannabis use? Do you think that they would be as competent at restricting cannabis use to those over 21 as the ATF has been at restricting the use of alcohol to the same group?

Does government regulation assure compliance?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Oh right! You would all whine about that too.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Do you think that there should be restrictions on manufacturing it like there is on moonshine alcohol?

Absolutely, especially if the product is to be sold (stuff grown at home for personal consumption I would treat more like homemade wine). The best drug law ever written by far is the Food and Drug Act of 1906. It requires everything to be labeled as to exactly what is in it. Oddly, I still find products that don’t adhere to this, such as wines and beers that don’t say the percentage of alcohol. I want to know! I can’t for the life of me see how they get away with not putting this information on the bottle, when the law fairly clearly requires them to. And even if it didn’t, I would think they would still want to provide that info to the customer. Myself, I generally won’t buy if I don’t know what’s in it.

Different states could regulate as they see fit. What works well in one state could be tried in others. I definitely think that outdoor growers should be required to put an adequate fence and perhaps electronic security around the plot to discourage theft, especially from minors. No one should be allowed to grow on public land. No one should be able to sell adulterated product. Many of the rules that apply with standard agriculture would apply as well. I don’t want bugs and mice in my cannabis! Yuck! I don’t want spider mites either, nor the chemicals used to get rid of spider mites. And frankly, I’d prefer organically grown. No chemicals whatsoever. People are allowed to make wine at home in limited quantities, and if they make good product, they can apply to become a “manufacturer” or winery. It could be similar for cannabis.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

So, you are in favor of forcing people to put up fences/ install electronic security in order to discourage theft? Who's gonna monitor that? Who's gonna monitor whether cannabis has been adulterated?

The infrastructure that you advocate would be enormous! And it would likely be as inefficient as every other government agency. Are you willing to pay more in taxes to support this new layer of government?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

In thew meantime, this drug war is breaking our country apart and bankrupting our future. Go to El Paso, TX and see what prohibition is causing. I have family/friends there and I get updated all the time. The border towns being taken over one at a time by brutal drug cartels in bed with the members of Mexican police and military. The death toll is well beyond Afghanistan now. Black Market marijuana is funding it.

This is a crisis situation that must be dealt with now and that is by legalizing and regulating. There is no more room for debate. Humanitarian compassion necessitates...

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Do you think there should be penalties for driving under the influence of pot like there is for alcohol or other drugs?

This is a complex question. Many people drive just fine under the influence of cannabis. (http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/misc/driving/driving.htm) Almost no one drives just fine under the influence of alcohol, and past a certain level of intoxication it’s just plain impossible to drive at all on alcohol. Cannabis differs from this in that once your brain’s cannabinoid receptors are saturated, it’s impossible to get more intoxicated, no matter how much you smoke. Regular cannabis users will confirm this. Take a couple puffs and you get high. Smoke the whole rest of the joint, and you’re really not any higher.

Some people drive poorly while completely sober. Some drive poorly when their girlfriend breaks up with them. Some are on medications that they MUST take. I guess the fairest thing is to have some type of electronic video driving game in the police cars that test a person’s responses and ability to drive, regardless of type-of-or-reason-for debilitation. The fine and/or punishment depends on the level of debilitation directly, as recorded by the machine. Does that sound fair and reasonable?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

"Many people drive just fine under the influence of cannabis"

But then again, some do not. How many deaths associated with cannabis impaired drivers are OK with you?

Do you believe that smoking some low grade cannabis produces a different effect than if you smoke some high grade? Should low grade intoxication be allowed behind the wheel while high grade intoxication is not?

No, that does not sound reasonable. Does it sound reasonable if it's OK to drive while you're just a little over the legal limit of .08?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

The DEA could only come up with 5 auto accidents that MAY have been marijuana related in their latest reefer madness report. Only 5? I think we can live with that. People cause accidents by turning the knobs on their radio more than pot smokers. There are already millions of pot smokers driving now not causing car wrecks.

High grade means you smoke less to get the desired effects.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Do you think that there should be penalties for growing it on wilderness land where native vegatation is stripped away, streams are diverted for irrigation, chemicals (sometimes illegal) are used for fertilizer, illegal aliens are used for tending the crops etc etc etc?

Absolutely. Legalize it. Regulate it. Grow it at home, or have large companies grow it and sell it. If people can go to the store and buy a pack of Acapulco Golden Lights, do you honestly think they’re going to grow out in the woods or even at home? People are generally lazy. Do you go procure hops and barley and make your own beer, or do you go to nearest convenience store and buy a 6-pack? That’s an easy choice. (Well, I do have one friend who makes beer occasionally, and another who grows her own tobacco, but these are hobbyists, and few and far between). Make the easy choice the legal choice, and the people will never look back. And then it becomes far easier to control—just as alcohol and tobacco are now.

I don’t want ANYONE harming my public lands. That would include cannabis growers, major corporations, logging companies, mining companies, meth labs, illegal aliens, legal aliens, little green aliens, etc.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

So, would you complain as loudly about the obscene profits that Cannabis Inc. posted as you probably do about Big Pharma?

Again, do you think that the black market would dry up and blow away just because cannabis was legal? What do you think the penalties should be for black marketeers?

"And then it becomes far easier to control—just as alcohol and tobacco are now." Yep, we all know that there are virtually no abuses in regard to tobacco & alcohol. LOL!

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Do you really think that if cannabis is legalized the black market is just going to go away?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Totally. It worked with alcohol. Drug dealers will be out of business because there just isn't enough hard drug users to make a living. Pot is their cash crop, not heroin.

Why would anyone risk their life buying from a street dealer if they can buy in a store or grow for themselves and know that they are getting quality from a licensed business?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Legalization of cannabis will end the black market violence and corruption! Put our farmers back to work in the hemp fields! Food, fuel, building materials stronger than steel, plastics, fiber, clothing, paper, therapeutic herb and medicines, recreation & tourism! It's time to create new job opportunities and help our communities prosper... https://sensiblewashington.org/blog/2010-campaign/read-i-1068/

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    2 years, 3 months ago

"Legalization of cannabis will end the black market violence and corruption!"

Do you have any proof, any proof at all, that this would be the case? Can you cite a single specific country that has accomplished this?

Just because you can dream it up and say it on the internet doesn't make it true.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

What countries have legalized it?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Wait a minute!! I thought hemp was male marijuana where the plants are incapable of producing the THC and cannabinoids found in female buds. Now you are talking about two different things really, because the issue is drug use.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Ummm.....I dunno.....maybe because it's cheaper?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

ferd they would mass produce and sell it far cheaper than a bootlegger could. Even after all the taxes they would slam on it.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Larry, at what point do the laws of supply and demand kick in? What about those people that wouldn't touch it if the government was involved in it, and would rather buy from a black market source?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

How many black market alcohol producers/users do you know?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

"How many black market alcohol producers/users do you know?"

Yep, that pretty much correctly sums it up. Legalization would put an end to all the violence and drug wars over cannabis. Might even make it safe to go hiking again up there in the Okienoggin woods? What I doubt legalization would do, however, is create the high value Ag industry that you envision. Hemp might offer a few niche markets for a few farmers, but let's not get carried away. You're making it out to be some huge Ag industry that will sustain a large segment of farmers. It won't provide that because hemp could be quickly and very easily overproduced if the government approves its cultivation. All the other side benefits you mention by mixing its seeds with nuts and twigs and making it appeal to the organic crowd of hippies from yesteryore is more of a novel cult fad than anything else. While it's true that most hippies grew up and became assimilated into society, not all of them shop at Whole Foods.

What you have to remember is that hemp used to grow wild all along the railroad tracks of this country. That means it is very easy to grow. In addition, many of its industrial uses have been supplanted by other legal fibers with a very long history in this country. Do you really think certain industries would be willing to adapt and re-tool just to accommodate hemp today? Some might in order to take advantage of the novelty of putting "hemp" on their label, but we aren't looking at some huge, new industry here because hemp is "old world". What we're looking at is a highly regulated and taxed niche market with well defined limitations. But hey, I'm all for getting the crime out of the picture...and making it legal will do precisely that.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

I appreciate the thoughtful opinions, but they are not based in reality. The modern crops you speak of are way too dependant on toxic pesticides and fertilizers to be sustainable for the future. Plus, how can you call the most nutritious food in the world "niche"? It is only "niche" in America because we are restricted from growing it! Once people wake up from the dream we've been living under, hemp will go back to its rightful place in everyday use. Just like it has been for almost 5000 years of human history.

If you don't believe me, read the Popular Mechanics article on it called, "New Billion Dollar Crop" VOL. 69 February, 1938 NO. 2 http://www.ukcia.org/research/PopularMechanics/index.php

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

LOL! Popular Mechanics articles from before WW II??? Give me a break! Sorry, but that's just nuts and even if it is your pipe dream, it's not going to happen. Reality is today and it's not some creative notion to sell copy from some seventy years ago! You're trying to re-invent the keyboard, highlander, and it's not going to happen.

I can call it a "niche" because that's all it will end up being if it does get legalized because behind legalization will be the perception of the drug and not the hemp seeds in somebody's energy bar or trail mix.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

It is already happening and it will happen even more. LOL. Obviously you didn't read the story and you are not paying attention to the political climate. I am the mainstream now! I don't care if you like the products or the industry I represent. I don't have to convince you. The product sells itself. BILLIONS!

HEMP HAS ARRIVED!

I back up my opinions with facts. You have no facts to support your opinions.

0

Larry71     2 years, 3 months ago

Highlander. Would you say that there is no risk in using mj when smoking. Because I am sure it produces that nasty black tar in your lungs just as it does in your pipes. And there are other harmful natural occurring chemicals in mj. now i am all for legalization of mj. But there are risks it cant be all shiny happy people holding hands, and fifteen years later oops we were wrong there is side effects to mj. Sound familiar the tobacco companies used to say the same things about tobacco.

0

highlander420     2 years, 3 months ago

Hi Larry,

I would say there MAY be risks, but lack of real scientific experiments with carefully controlled protocols without political bias is almost unheard of.

You say "And there are other harmful natural occurring chemicals in mj"

No. There isn't. Only when you smoke, and even those may be canceled out by the overwhelming therapeutic properties.

I enjoy these kinds of discussions, but there is so much disinformation and statements made without any credible evidence.

Water is made from hydrogen and oxygen, both of which are dangerous on their own. Remember the Hindenburg! So in that sense, you can put even the safest of safe products or naturally occuring

By the way...I totally recommend people vaporize or look into cannabis oil extracts. Do a Google search on "Rick Simpson Run From The Cure" for more info on that. Unlike tobacco, cannabis cures cancer.

-John Novak (Wauconda)

0

highlander420     2 years, 3 months ago

Also, Cannabis has been used, smoked, eaten and used in every other manner for well over 5000 years of human history. That's a fact that drug warriors won't talk about. We would have figured it out by now if it was dangerous. Also, tobacco smoking is not nearly as dangerous IF it is grown without putting chemicals that stimulate addiction, pesticides, heavy fertilizers, etc, and use in moderation.

1

Larry71     2 years, 3 months ago

Thanks for the replies highlander

0

JustanObserver     2 years, 3 months ago

So billions are being spent on tobacco eradication programs throughout the country, some via settlement monies, and others as government-funded programs for health reasons, and yet some are advocating for the legalization of mj? Legalize it and then put a tax on it that will satisfy the billions that will need to be spent several years later when the realization kicks in that it causes lung cancer or another health-related ailment.

0

highlander420     2 years, 3 months ago

Cannabis cures cancer

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

So Ferd, you already said you agree with legalization, but you red herringed my ideas to death. So what's your ideas on how to accomplish legalization?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

I have no interest in across-the-board legalization.

I'm sorry if you consider my ability to see thru the pro-legalization talking points as a smoke screen (pun intended) and my asking viable questions as red herrings.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

So, would you complain as loudly about the obscene profits that Cannabis Inc. posted as you probably do about Big Pharma?

I'll never complain about any business making a fair profit. Why do you complain about such things? Doesn't a company have a right to make profit?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Ferd, You act as if a model for legalization doesn't exist. It does. It's called the repeal of prohibition. Yes, there are problems associated with legal alcohol and tobacco, but the point is that those problems are far less than they were during prohibition. Why would you want to stay with a system that causes more problems?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

"the point is that those problems are far less than they were during prohibition."

This is a tired, worn out refrain that is likely unsupportable. I would love to see evidence that supports this contention. But first, I think it is important to define the "problems" of which you speak.

Let's not compare the prohibition of alcohol (apples) to the prohibition of marijuana (oranges), shall we? Show me some statistics on the legalization of marijuana where it has been done and the effects that occurred in the real world.

1

    2 years, 3 months ago

Ferd,

Why is it OK to imprison people for using cannabis, but not for drugs which have been scientifically proven to be worse, like alcohol and tobacco?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Because marijuana is currently illegal. Alcohol and tobacco are not.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Ferd,

What general principle makes it OK to imprison people for using marijuana?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

The general principle is called breaking the law. Under current law it is illegal to use or possess marijuana in most places in the US. Right, wrong or indifferent...that's the way it is.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

You're missing the point here, Ferd. The question "what makes it OK to imprison people for using marijuana" is the question "why should it be illegal to use marijuana?". Your answer is circular - "It should be illegal because its illegal"

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Norm, I answered the question as it was posed to me. Not my fault that the wrong question was asked. Want a different answer? Ask a different question.

But I do understand what you are alluding to. Do I think marijuana laws are outdated? Yes. Do I think they are based on misinformation and fear? Yes. Do I favor decriminalization? Yes. Do I favor medical use? Yes. Do I favor across the board legalization. No. Do I favor getting the government involved? Absolutely not. The government would undoubtedly muck it up just as they have mucked up the medical marijuana program based on comments in this story. They write laws that are unclear, not understandable, unenforceable, leave enforcement up to the willy-nilly interpretation of the cops. Show me some workable proposals instead of rhetorical talking points and I might buy off on the whole thing. Until then, I think there are still more questions to be asked and a lot of unresolved issues.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Wait a minute!! I thought hemp was male marijuana where the plants are incapable of producing the THC and cannabinoids found in female buds.

Ha ha! I'm trying to envision this species of all male hemp plants!! LOL

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

You know, Ferd, you seem to have a case of the "impossibles". I'm glad the people running this country aren't like that or they'd never get anything done.... Oh, wait...

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

I guess I just tend to think things thru a little more than some people.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Good job Ferd. You posed some great questions but I don't think you got a lot of concrete answers.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

It does seem that there wasn't a lot of answers to the questions that I posed, only more questions. Funny how that works. I tend not to go along with conventional thinking and tend not to buy off on rhetoric and talking points. Some people tend to think that just because a person can make unsubstantiated claims and post them on the internet then they must be true.Sorry, but I need better information than that.

If the pro-legalization advocates have a better argument then I have yet to hear it.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

I suspect that most of the pro-pot posters on this thread are consumed with their side of the topic because they are users to some extent. They cannot imagine their world without it. They grasp every little 'branch and twig' of "evidence", trying to infer that there is a "tree" that exists as a 'model for legalization'. But it doesn't; because the branches never connect.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

"I suspect that most of the pro-pot posters on this thread are consumed with their side of the topic because they are users to some extent. They cannot imagine their world without"

Do you also suspect that all the members of Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP) are "users to some extent"? Here's their Statement of Principles:

"1. LEAP does not promote the use of drugs and is deeply concerned about the extent of drug abuse worldwide. LEAP is also deeply concerned with the destructive impact of violent drug gangs and cartels everywhere in the world. Neither problem is remedied by the current policy of drug prohibition. Indeed, drug abuse and gang violence flourish in a drug prohibition environment, just as they did during alcohol prohibition."

found at the homepage of their website here: http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Here's LEAP's Mission Statement:

"Founded on March 16, 2002, LEAP is made up of current and former members of law enforcement who believe the existing drug policies have failed in their intended goals of addressing the problems of crime, drug abuse, addiction, juvenile drug use, stopping the flow of illegal drugs into this country and the internal sale and use of illegal drugs. By fighting a war on drugs the government has increased the problems of society and made them far worse. A system of regulation rather than prohibition is a less harmful, more ethical and a more effective public policy.

The mission of LEAP is to reduce the multitude of unintended harmful consequences resulting from fighting the war on drugs and to lessen the incidence of death, disease, crime, and addiction by ultimately ending drug prohibition.

LEAP's goals are:

  1. To educate the public, the media, and policy makers, to the failure of current drug policy by presenting a true picture of the history, causes and effects of drug abuse and the crimes related to drug prohibition and

  2. To restore the public's respect for law enforcement, which has been greatly diminished by its involvement in imposing drug prohibition.

LEAP's main strategy for accomplishing these goals is to create a constantly enlarging speakers bureau staffed with knowledgeable and articulate former drug-warriors who describe the impact of current drug policies on: police/community relations; the safety of law enforcement officers and suspects; police corruption and misconduct; and the financial and human costs associated with current drug policies.

found here: http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php?name=Content&pid=5

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

I'm not denying that there has been a failed drug war. I'm saying that the problem exists because of DEMAND. And as long as people think that nothing should be done to curb that demand, and that we should all just give in to the grip that marijuana has on society to create this demand, then it is simply a sorry testament to what is right in life. Nobody seems to acknowledge that California medical mj rights, and its subsequent marijuana boom in Mendocino county, caused problems far worse than prohibition.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

But then again who on this post is going to see demand as a problem. So it's really a battle of ideologies.

And, by the way, I'm completely fine with medical mj being produced for patients in need. But it would have to be produced big pharma and distributed by pharmacists just like the rest of the drugs, and not produced by the guy behind my backyard.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Marijuana is safer than aspirin

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

I'm burning candles for all the victims of the drug war, and there are many.

http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/drug-war-victim/

Give Peace A Chance.

2

    2 years, 3 months ago

After 40 years, $1 trillion, US War on Drugs has failed to meet any of its goals

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/05/13/ap-impact-years-trillion-war-drugs-failed-meet-goals/

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    2 years, 3 months ago

This is an opinion piece. Iam Right, can you please quantify " failed to meet any of its goals" and supply more statistics than one biased article that substantiates this claim?

It's funny how the opposing viewpoint is given a grand total of one small paragraph to counter this opinion.

"Walters insists society would be far worse today if there had been no War on Drugs."

Iam Right, care to comment on what the world would be like today had there been no attempts at interdiction? (And please refrain from opinions and rhetoric. Just the facts, man, just the facts.)

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    2 years, 3 months ago

FACT: Mexico has thousands dead in it's war on drugs...

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/study-links-drug-law-enforcement-to-more-violence

FACT: The pot friendly Netherlands are closing prisons due to falling crime rates...

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/01/drug-friendly-netherlands-to-close-8.html

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    2 years, 3 months ago

"The pot friendly Netherlands are closing prisons due to falling crime rates..."

LOL! That's downright laughable. I'm not even gonna bother to read the article!

FACT: In 2008, 108,756 people who got into car accidents were shown to have eaten french fries shortly before the accident, therefore eating french fries causes accidents.

What's the corealtion, Anna?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

That's your problem. Read the article and others like it... Those are just a VERY FEW examples. There is more of a correlation than you know... Do your own research and you will find out. I'm not going to do your homework for you...

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    2 years, 3 months ago

OK, I took your advice and read the "article" (which is nothing more than an opinion piece) and found that it didn't cite a single shred of scientific evidence, or any cause and effect conclusions whatsoever. Can you say anecdotal?

"FACT: Mexico has thousands dead in it's war on drugs..."

How many of those are cartel members killing each other over territory and business, Anna?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Yeah I read it. It's just one more pro pot piece of garbage with false statistics. In fact here is a reader response from the Netherlands article:

Anonymous said... Im from Holland and crime rates HAVE NOT (!!!) been dropping here. I don't know where you get your statistics, but for the last years, we're experiencing an increase in crime. These crimes usually just dont involve weed because the police has bigger issues like robberies, hard-drug issues (cocaine and stuff) etc.

January 24, 2011 3:44 AM

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

"In fact here is a reader response from the Netherlands article:"

And you get your information from reader responses? Seriously? Wow. Just Wow.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

It's FOX NEWS, for crying out loud!! I suppose I'm going to be accused of using an article from the "liberal media"? LOL

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Somehow we made it through over 5000 years of civilization...and actually, we could not have done it without hemp. Stop pretending like cannabis is this is a new thing that suddenly started happening in the 1920s. Reefer madness is dead.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Let’s hear from the man most responsible for outlawing cannabis, Harry J. Anslinger, Federal Bureau of Narcotics, in testimony before Congress, 1937:

“Negro entertainers with their jazz and swing music are declared an outgrowth of marihuana use which possesses white women to tap their feet.”

“Marihuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing.”

“Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men.”

“There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz and swing, result from marijuana usage. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers and any others.”

“...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races.”

“Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death.”

“You smoke a joint and you're likely to kill your brother.”

“Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind.”

Does this sound like the kind of person you want to believe and follow?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

So, is the guy who most responsible for making marijuana illegal still your hero? LOL

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

FACT: Your precious war on drugs began in racism.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

I have a doctor's recommendation to use this medicine. And I don't appreciate being called derogatory names. (WW, he has to abide by the same rules as I do, does he not? And you have started a zero tolerance policy against ad-hominem attacks, correct?)

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    2 years, 3 months ago

One thing I never did get is how "marihuana" could possibly both "lead to pacifism" and simultaneously be the "most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind". I guess propaganda doesn't have to be true or make sense, it just has to work.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

“...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races.”

So what's your primary reason, Ferd? This is the primary reason directly from the mouth of the man most responsible for making cannabis illegal.

As far as answering questions goes, I made an honest attempt at sincerely answering yours, but you've made no such attempt at answering mine. I intend on answering your concerns, but yesterday my computer crashed, so I had to reinstall OS and programs. Kinda been busy.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Ferd,

Is using cannabis intrinsically criminal? What is it that makes using cannabis intrinsically criminal?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Nothing is intrinsically criminal. How does that support your points?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Murder and rape aren't intrinsically criminal?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Nope, only if you are an adherant to Judeo-Christian law, but that's another discussion. Completely legal if you are a member of the Ugubugu tribe of pygmies in Borneo.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

It seems to me you're not really taking this discussion seriously, and that may be just as well, because they seem to have closed off further commenting. And I was just getting going. I think maybe they sensed that.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Murder and rape aren't intrinsically criminal?

Ferd says "Nope, only if you are an adherant to Judeo-Christian law,"

Did you really say that? With a straight face?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

So, if not for Judeo-Christian law, what makes murder and rape intrinsically criminal? If there are no rules there can be no crimes.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

OK...so I got to thinking about it and since it's too late to edit my comment above I'd like to amend it. See below:

"So, if not for Judeo-Christian law, what makes murder and rape intrinsically criminal?"

Strike "Judeo-Christian law" and insert religion in order to be more general.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

"If there are no rules there can be no crimes."

You don't get the meaning of intrinsic?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

I competely understand the meaning of "intrinsic", it really isn't a complex concept. I don't think you quite grasp the redundancy of your term "intrinsically criminal" because without a series of laws by which to judge the "crimes" of murder and rape they have no essential value of their own. Therefore, cirmes are not crimes unless one first has a set of standards by which particular actions are judged. What set of standards supercedes "morals" as set forth by religion?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

“There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz and swing, result from marijuana usage. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers and any others.” --Harry J. Anslinger, Federal Bureau of Narcotics

FACT: 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US in 1937. Now, more than 110 Million Americans, more than 1 in 3, has tried marijuana. By my rough guestimate, and accounting for the general rise in population since then, that's an increase of approximately 45,000%. If that's not failure, I don't know what is. And that's a FACT.

Question: Of the 110 Million Americans who have used marijuana, what is the proper number to imprison in order to best fulfill the goals of the war on drugs?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Methinks you use the wrong statistics to guage whether the war on drugs has been a success.

You still haven't addressed the question about what the country might be like if there had been no attempts at interdiction. Maybe a little more like Mexico?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Mexico has had prohibition, same as us. So what was your point?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Ferd says, "Methinks you use the wrong statistics to guage whether the war on drugs has been a success."

It's goal was to reduce cannabis use. Instead, it increased 45,000%. You classify that as success, and claim that I twist the truth?

1

    2 years, 3 months ago

Did I not say that I favored decriminalization and medical marijuana but not an across the board legalization?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

So answer the question: What is the proper number of cannabis users to imprison? The answer should be in the form of a whole number between 0 an 110 Million. What is that number?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

"Why should I go off on some conjecture and speculation about some hypothetical reality?"

It's an absurd question with no basis in reality.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

It seems like a pretty common sense question to me. If we don't know the number of people we're going to incarcerate, how can we possibly create a budget? How is that not relevant?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

OK, let's just arbitrarily say, for the sake of discussion and to satisfy you, that the appropriate number is 127,652. How is that relevant to the discussion? Budgets are usually based on figures from the past projected into the future factoring in the knowns and taking an educated W.A.G. on the unknowns.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

p.s. There really is no such thing as "common sense" ie: sense that is inherently the same for everyone.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

For crying out loud "Me". You're taking stuff from 1937? How lame is that?

Please take some time to view something real......and current:

http://www.drugfreeworld.org/#/documentaries/truth-about-drugs-documentary-marijuana

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

How lame? This was testimony from the director of the Bureau of Narcotics at the congressional hearing that made cannabis illegal. How could it not be relevant?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

You're taking stuff from 1937?

No, the stuff I take is much fresher than that (wink, wink).

1

    2 years, 3 months ago

For crying out loud "Me". You're taking stuff from 1937? How lame is that?

This is the person most responsible for making cannabis illegal. How is that not relevant?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

There are a host of better reasons for keeping it illegal than those back- woods attitudes. People today don't think that way and it's counter-racist of you to think anyone would. Just because he may have been "the person most responsible for making cannabis illegal" back then, doesn't mean those reasons are even the least bit relevant today!

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Anotherview says, "There are a host of better reasons for keeping it illegal than those back- woods attitudes."

And I've asked quite nicely three different times in three different ways for one of you to enumerate a few of them. But all I get is circular reasoning and ad-hominem attacks.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

(Okay. I'll address the recreational issue only, since it is argued that there are medical benifits to some people - that is another issue.)

I don't know if you have fast enough internet to actually view the 'drugfreeworld.org' link I posted, so I've taken quotes from the ex-users that were interviewed and i'll enumerate for you.

Using Marijuana:

-distorts reality -takes the place of life -it changes everything -it becomes a driven purpose wanting to get high -gives you preoccupied thinking and you stop trying -prone to accidents -when you don't smoke it you become tired, nervous and anxious -you also feel out of the norm -people who manufacture it want to make it more potent -which is more damaging to the body -if kids see it alot, it seems ok to them -changes lives for kids who start smoking it -affects school performance causing lower grades -compromises athletic performance -separates you from people who don't smoke it -separates you from your family (unless parents smoke too) -IS a gateway drug -eventually you build a tolerance so you may seek other stronger drugs for high -people who you associate with who smoke, often have other drugs -high drop out rate for users -avoidance of jobs that require drug tests -screws up finances - 'it takes your life away and leads to a life you never wanted"

I'll say it again....making something LEGAL makes something OK.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

And that has NOTHING to do with race.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

You can say the same thing for alcohol, and that's still legal

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

“Marihuana is responsible for the raping of white women by crazed negroes.” — Hearst Newspapers, 1930

“Marihuana influenced negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men’s shadows, and look at a white woman twice.” — Hearst Newspapers, 1935

I think it's important to see the initial reasons cannabis was made illegal. It's not pretty, I'll admit. It's important to remember just who it is that the drug warriors and prohibitionists are siding with. Not pretty at all.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

That's a low blow to tie the two together don't you think?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

"You still haven't addressed the question about what the country might be like if there had been no attempts at interdiction. Maybe a little more like Mexico?"

I thought we were sticking to facts here. Why should I go off on some conjecture and speculation about some hypothetical reality? How do you know what it would have been like? I believe there would have been considerably less violence, and I believe the facts and statistics of alcohol prohibition back that up unambiguously.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

did you even bother to check out the link above?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

"Why should I go off on some conjecture and speculation about some hypothetical reality?"

You are certainly willing to do so when it comes to your conclusion that "Under legalization, there would be no cartels. Legalization completely undermines the cartels' business structure/plan."

"How do you know what it would have been like?" I don't. And neither do you know that the US war on drugs has been an abject failure because you don't know what would have happened had there not been one.

"I believe there would have been considerably less violence, and I believe the facts and statistics of alcohol prohibition back that up unambiguously."

But you can't prove it therefore it's just an opinion and speculative.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

"But you can't prove it therefore it's just an opinion and speculative."

Of course its "just an opinion and speculative". The question of what is the best policy (regarding any topic, but in this case marijuana policy) is necessarily a question of opinion, and it necessarily involves speculation regarding the effects of various policy options. Neither our present drug policy nor suggestions for other policies are based on perfect knowledge and absolutely complete information regarding causality. That does not mean that its irrelevant to look at the facts that we CAN determine and use those facts to construct plausible hypotheses.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

"How many of those are cartel members killing each other over territory and business, Anna?"

The better question is; How many of those human beings would have died under a legal, regulated system? And the answer is, far, far, fewer. Drugs do harm, but wars on drug users do far more harm. Education, treatment, and counseling work. Incarceration doesn't. The carrot works. The stick doesn't.

And I hope you're not suggesting that it's OK that these human beings are dying because they are in cartels? Under legalization, there would be no cartels. Legalization completely undermines the cartels' business structure/plan.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

"Under legalization, there would be no cartels. Legalization completely undermines the cartels' business structure/plan."

That's pure speculation, prove it. What's your model?

Name for me a single country that has legalized marijuana and absolutely zero illegal trafficking. (I'll bet you can't)

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

"Name for me a single country that has legalized marijuana and absolutely zero illegal trafficking. (I'll bet you can't)."

That's not the only model (legalizing pot) that can provide a good example. When the US legalized alcohol in 1933, organized crime elements lost major market share in the alcohol business, and the violence associated with alcohol cartels plummeted. Did illegal trafficking in alcohol drop to zero? Probably not. But it was certainly drastically reduced. When's the last time you've heard of a gun battle between the Seagram's and the Anheiser-Busch gangs?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Thanks for trying, Norm, but apparently we've been shut down. For my part, I was trying to keep it as civil as I could. Not sure why they closed it. I wasn't offended by anything, but then I'm probably not much of a barometer in that department.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

It's ok some people just can't admit that they have lost... ;)

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Way to dodge the question.

If we're going to talk about apples, lets talk about apples and not engage in "conjecture and speculation about some hypothetical reality".

You said, unequivically, "Under legalization, there would be no cartels. Legalization completely undermines the cartels' business structure/plan."

What's your proof? Where's your fact based analysis?

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

"What's your proof? Where's your fact based analysis?"

The proof lies in the history, Ferd. Even Elliot Ness knew that. The end of Prohibition put him out of a job with the Feds and ironically his own boozing put him out of a job with the City of Cleveland. Funny how that worked. The very thing he was fighting to stop ended up handing him the seeds of his own destruction.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

There is no fact based analysis, because the "experiment" has not yet commenced. It will though.

However... Alcohol provides a very good parallel example. Under prohibition the smuggling and manufacture created a very good living for thugs and gangsters, giving rise to some of the worst and most prolonged street violence the country had ever seen. When prohibition ended, these cartels had to turn to other substances.

Now. Illegal alcohol manufacturing and sale does still exist in some isolated parts of the deep south. It's worth noting however, that the counties where it exists are the very counties that are also "dry". In places where prohibition still exists, so does the crime associated with prohibition. Prohibition causes crime, especially when we are talking about a substance used by so many. Prohibition does nothing to stop consumption.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Ah, Mav... you beat me to it, you devil.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

" Prohibition causes crime".....interesting concept.

So, let's just say that shoplifting is "prohibited". Do shoplifting laws cause shoplifting? Is it a case of "cause and effect" or "effect and cause"?

Silly.........

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    2 years, 3 months ago

You're missing the point again Ferd. The crime caused by prohibition is not limited to the crime of possession/manufacture/sale/ etc. of marijuana. It causes an increase in the crimes of assault, robbery, murder,etc. by putting the distribution of this product in the hands of organized crime rather than legal businesses. Again, when is the last time you've heard of a shoot-out between the Seagram's and the Anheiser-Busch gangs (or seen their graffiti tags on somebody's wall)?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

It doesn't seem to me as if Ferd has any intention of getting the point.

1

    2 years, 3 months ago

I don't understand why Goldy's comment disappeared. Odd.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Norm, the issue in my mind though it was, what created more wreckage, the mob involvement in alcohol or the legalization and the wreckage as a result of alcohol abuse. IMO their is no arguement, legal alcohol has reuined more lives than it and the mob ever did prior to legalization.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

I agree that alcohol itself has negative effects on a large number of people's lives, but the lesson of prohibition is that as long as people want to drink it, they will find a way to do so. Each of us can control ourselves, but we can't control what others do. What we can control is whether the business of producing and distributing alcohol is on the black market (ie. run by the mob) or if its above the table - legal, taxed, and regulated. When its on the open market, at least we can eliminate that source of income for organized crime, and the violence that accompanies that criminal element.

Its also true that when you compare the damage caused by alcohol to the damage caused by marijuana, alcohol is far worse across the board - both in terms of health effects on the individual who consumes it and societal effects. How is it just to lock up so many people for using a substance that is far less damaging than the perfectly legal drug of alcohol? Alcohol often makes people extremely belligerent; marijuana tends to make people extremely passive. Drunk people often damage other people and property. For people high on marijuana, fighting and breaking things is simply too much work.

There are certainly a number of people who will abuse either substance - or others - but there is a greater number of people who can use either one of them responsibly - without causing problems. There's also a number of people who don't use guns responsibly, but does that mean that nobody should be allowed to possess them?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

I think that makes more sense than almost any other post on this thread...

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    2 years, 3 months ago

Name for me a single country that has legalized marijuana and absolutely zero illegal trafficking. (I'll bet you can't)

I'll bet I can. The United States. Cannabis was only made illegal in 1937. For the 150 years of US history prior to then, cannabis was perfectly legal. And of course, as might be expected, there was absolutely no illegal trafficking, whatsoever. There couldn't have been. It was perfectly legal.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

And any idiot knows that it wasn't permeated into the culture of American life the way it is today. Give it up "me". You've been shut down.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

anotherview says, And any idiot knows that it wasn't permeated into the culture of American life the way it is today.

Actually, it was so permeated into American culture that no one thought twice about it. For 250 years prior to it's prohibition it was considered the safest drug in western pharmacopoeia and it was the only drug deemed safe enough for use by infants.

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    2 years, 3 months ago

I haven't been shut down. The thread has.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Me, however with the increased taxation on tabacco people grow their own, buy from out of state and smuggle it off reservations. Pot will be the same, ie illegal purchases.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Don't overtax! That's simple.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

Oh, and I might add--America's first law regarding cannabis required farmers to grow it.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dope/etc/cron.html

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    2 years, 3 months ago

That's a very educational link, Iam, and most interesting! Thanks for sharing it.

0

    2 years, 3 months ago

That's a low blow to tie the two together don't you think?

Consider the following statistics published by the Drug Policy Alliance

Blacks constitute 13 percent of all drug users, but 35 percent of those arrested for drug possession, 55 percent of persons convicted, and 74 percent of people sent to prison. The rate of drug admissions to state prison for black men is 13 times greater than the rate for white men.

In 1986, before the enactment of federal mandatory minimum sentencing for crack-cocaine offenses, the average federal drug sentence for African-Americans was 11 percent higher than for whites. Four years later, the average federal drug sentence for African-Americans was 49 percent higher.

Rates of drug use or drug selling are no greater for members of minorities than for nonminorities, yet minorities are stopped, searched, arrested, prosecuted, and incarcerated at far greater rates than whites.

Persons of color are typically sentenced to longer jail and prison terms than white counterparts convicted of identical offenses.

Felony disfranchisement laws have resulted in the disfranchisement of 1.4 million African-American men, or 13 percent of the African-American adult male population, a rate that is seven times the national average.

Please explain how you could possibly not tie the two together?

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    2 years, 3 months ago

And as you can see, the racism still persists to this day, 75 years later.

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highlander420     2 years, 3 months ago

Milton Friedman, 500+ Economists Call for Marijuana Regulation Debate; New Report Projects $10-14 Billion Annual Savings and Revenues Savings/Revenues Projected in New Study by Harvard Economist Could Pay For: Implementing Required Port Security Plans in Just One Year Securing Soviet-Era "Loose Nukes" in Under Three Years

Replacing marijuana prohibition with a system of taxation and regulation similar to that used for alcoholic beverages would produce combined savings and tax revenues of between $10 billion and $14 billion per year, finds a June 2005 report by Dr. Jeffrey Miron, visiting professor of economics at Harvard University.

The report has been endorsed by more than 530 distinguished economists, who have signed an open letter to President Bush and other public officials calling for "an open and honest debate about marijuana prohibition," adding, "We believe such a debate will favor a regime in which marijuana is legal but taxed and regulated like other goods."

Chief among the endorsing economists are three Nobel Laureates in economics: Dr. Milton Friedman of the Hoover Institute, Dr. George Akerlof of the University of California at Berkeley, and Dr. Vernon Smith of George Mason University.

Dr. Miron's paper, "The Budgetary Implications of Marijuana Prohibition," concludes: **Replacing marijuana prohibition with a system of legal regulation would save approximately $7.7 billion in government expenditures on prohibition enforcement -- $2.4 billion at the federal level and $5.3 billion at the state and local levels.

**Revenue from taxation of marijuana sales would range from $2.4 billion per year if marijuana were taxed like ordinary consumer goods to $6.2 billion if it were taxed like alcohol or tobacco.

These impacts are considerable, according to the Marijuana Policy Project in Washington, D.C. For example, $14 billion in annual combined annual savings and revenues would cover the securing of all "loose nukes" in the former Soviet Union (estimated by former Assistant Secretary of Defense Lawrence Korb at $30 billion) in less than three years. Just one year's savings would cover the full cost of anti-terrorism port security measures required by the Maritime Transportation Security Act of 2002. The Coast Guard has estimated these costs, covering 3,150 port facilities and 9,200 vessels, at $7.3 billion total.

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