Bankruptcy looms as groups try to rally support for troubled arena
Friday, February 3, 2012
WENATCHEE — As supporters of the Town Toyota Center try to rally the community to keep it from closing, the arena’s governing board has begun exploring the possibility of bankruptcy.
The Greater Wenatchee Regional Events Center Public Facilities District board on Thursdsay agreed to interview two law firms — one from Florida and one from the Northwest — to possibly retain for legal advise in case it has to file bankruptcy as a result of the arena’s outstanding $42 million debt.
The PFD’s attorney, Pete Fraley, said the board may have to pursue bankruptcy if local jurisdictions cannot find a way to pay off the debt, which went into default on Dec. 1.
“We need to reach out to these firms sooner rather than later,” board chairman Tim Cetto said.
Officials from the city of Wenatchee, which financially backed the arena, are not publicly talking about the possibility of bankruptcy for the city and have not sought out attorneys for that. Mayor Frank Kuntz has said in the past that he does not believe Wenatchee would have to do that. But in an interview today he said, “Never say never. We haven’t ruled anything out at this point.”
Meanwhile, youth hockey leaders are trying to get everyone who regularly uses the arena, attends events there or just wants to keep it open together for a group picture at the arena at 7:30 p.m. Monday.
“We want to show our public officials that a whole lot of people — tax-paying, voting people — support this building,” said Tami Gurnard, registrar for the Wenatchee Amateur Hockey Association, who thought up the idea.
The hockey group and the Wenatchee Wild will use the picture in a community campaign to show how much the center is used and loved, she said.
People are asked to be at the arena’s main rink by 7:15 p.m. to get in place and to wear skates or shoes with good traction for standing on the ice. Hockey players are asked to wear their team jerseys. People can also brings signs to show their support for the arena.
Gurnard said her husband has been playing hockey for more than 30 years, and her 14- and 10-year-old sons have played since they were 4.
“Between youth hockey and figure skating, we have 500 kids that use the rink weekly,” she said. “If the doors of the facility close, the kids will lose out. ... They will be the innocent victims that nobody seems to be thinking about.”
She added, “The kids don’t care about the politics. They just want to skate.”
The arena is set to run out of money sometime in April. The city of Wenatchee has been covering some of its operating expenses, but city officials have said that without a regional plan to pay off the arena’s debt they won’t continue to keep the facility afloat.
The nine jurisdictions that make up the public entity that owns the facility are pursuing a sales tax plan that would first require legislative approval and then voter approval.
“I think there is a lot of support out there for this building,” Gurnard said. “We’d like to see it on Monday.”
Michelle McNiel: 664-7152
mcniel@wenatcheeworld.com
» 127 comments on this story
MORE LIKE THIS
Arena users wanted for group photo
At Town Toyota Center, the show still goes on
Crowd gathers to support arena
Sales tax is key to arena staying open
Taxpayers’ victory leaves city and arena unsure of the future
Advertisement
UPCOMING EVENTS
Tuesday, May 21
Toastmasters
Chelan County PUD Auditorium, 327 N. Wenatchee Ave., 7 a.m.
Tuesday, May 21
Alzheimer's Association Caregiver Support Group
Lake Chelan Community Hospital, 1:30 p.m.
Tuesday, May 21
Alzheimer's Association Caregiver Support Group
Lake Chelan Community Hospital, 1:30 p.m.
Tuesday, May 21
Memory Lane Coffee Hour
Mountain Meadows Assisited Living, 2:30 p.m.
Comments
Want to comment on this story? All Wenatchee World members are invited to comment on stories, by using the form below. Please know that we at wenatcheeworld.com hope our site is useful, entertaining and civil. So we'll delete comments that are obscene, abusive or way off topic. We appreciate it when readers use the "suggest removal" button to flag inappropriate comments. For more about interacting with the site, see our Use Policy.
Annsboy 1 year, 3 months ago
While I think building the thing in the first place was foolish and hasty, we have a facility that is the jewel of the region. Went to Styx Wed night, I am doing two home shows in the TTC in Feb and March, I take my kids skating, went to Manhein steamroller, stars on ice...need I go on? I think it is time to consider selling off city propety, privatising some city services such as public works using inmate labor to do the vast majority of park maintence ect... I my business when I am facing reduced sales I go through every line on the profit and loss statement and cut everywhere I can. The city needs to think outside what is usually done and reduce spending to the absolute minimum in all areas. When the economy recovers, tax revenus will balloon and you can add back in the would like to haves.
jb999 1 year, 3 months ago
"When the economy recovers..." [The Big Lie that stays the panic]
The global economy is at its zenith. It will grow no more ever. The sum of all of the energy sources that fuel all of the engines that power all of the machines that do all of the work that is the global economy has peaked.
Choices made now and actions taken now will have future personal consequences of astronomical proportions even though none will alter the cosmic tides of Mother Earth and her mighty sun.
"Choose wisely, grasshopper."
Meowzzz 1 year, 3 months ago
Whether a person likes it or not, the fact is that the arena is here and it isn't going anywhere. Yes, we were mislead about the funds this was going to draw, and that it would pay for itself. Yes, yes and yes. But it's here now, and we have to do something about it. Coming up with a plan to fund it is necessary because the latter is a worst scenerio. Its like realizing you charged too much on your credit card. Yes, you made a mistake, but you can't run from it. The only action is to come up with a plan to pay it down, or fix it. This is what needs to happen with the TTC. I'm not happy about the situation either, but something has to happen and shutting it down is a very bad decision. We need to figure out something to keep it open so it can generate something, instead of nothing. I thought the sales tax idea was good, and I would vote yes on it.
Taxguru 1 year, 3 months ago
Wow, it is sure refreshing to have more people with common sense commenting......Finally...!!!
jbrook 1 year, 3 months ago
I absolutely agree with you! I would vote yes too.
TerryFinn 1 year, 3 months ago
Agreed.
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
Except, it was only Wenatchee that did all of this. Therefore it's Wenatchee's problem to solve. "It's like realizing you charged too much on your credit card." - True if you're only talking about Wenatchee. Having those of us in Douglas County bail out Wenatchee is like asking my neighbor to help pay off my credit card because I charged too much on it. Get real people. You can condemn those of us that are against the bailout for Wenatchee all you want, but the fact remains that I'm not wishing for the facility to close down, I only want the responsible party (Wenatchee) to step up to the plate and own up to their obligations. Not our problem in Douglas County.
lonedog3 1 year, 3 months ago
"Its like realizing you charged too much on your credit card. Yes, you made a mistake, but you can't run from it." No you cannot run from your bad debt --- HOWEVER-- that is exactly what wenatchee is trying to do. Against better judgement and without considering all of the facts the City of Wenatchee built it. The PFD was put together by a state politician that needed it to increase the value on their land as an afterthought. the PFD had nothing to do with the decision to build and now has this fiasco dumped in their laps. the city of wenatchee should have been working on this nightmare 3 to 4 years ago not waiting till the last minute. this is--sorry to say--a wenatchee debt--not the rest of the valleys. Wenatchee is the only one (well a couple of property owners) that would ever stand to profit by the WEA. Waterville, entiat cashmere will never stand to profit from this EVER! wenatchee has all to gain. It is wenatchees mess let them figure it out. higher sales tax in wenatchee, higher property tax in wenatchee, higher ticket prices at the WEA or even toll roads at each end of town. for one Douglas County wants to raise tax for roads and law enforcement. I will not hesitate to vote yes for that. But vote yes for higher taxes for the WEA? Never since there is nothing there to benifit the MAJORITY of citizens in this valley. I think wallgreens saw this coming and was smart enought to build another store in east wenatchee. That move made no sense at the time but it sure does now! If the "supporters" really want to save it--open your wallets! With the millions and millions of fans-- well okay the thousands and thousands, well of the hundreds and hundreds of fans well you get the point if these fans dedicate $1000.00 per year from their budget the problem is solved. Just dont think stripping the surrounding communities of money year after year is the correct soulition to the WEA.
Meowzzz 1 year, 3 months ago
I see your point lonedog. If I were in one of the outlying counties, I would find it unfair to have to fund an arena that isn't in my town. I thought your comment was very well voiced, and professionally spoken. I don't usually comment because sometimes it can get so heated between commenters. It's nice to see someone speak their view in a friendly manner. I would still like to see a vote by the people on this issue, however, I know that takes time and it probably wouldn't happen before April which is when they are thinking they will shut the arena down. I would like to see something happen to keep the arena open. The arena is a great feature to have in this town, and it's sad that it's such a mess financially.
muddydawgs 1 year, 3 months ago
"But vote yes for higher taxes for the WEA? Never since there is nothing there to benifit the MAJORITY of citizens in this valley" Really? The Wenatchee Wild raising thousands and thousands of dollars for local charities is nothing? Wenatchee Wild players helping our children to learn to enjoy reading in our Wenatchee Schools is nothing? Wenatchee players visiting cancer patients is nothing? Hundreds of kids being able to participate in a positive activity such ice skating or playing hockey is nothing? Expansions of local restaurants and motels is nothing? I think your nothings are very important somethings.
wenvalleylifer 1 year, 3 months ago
Well said!
wonderstar 1 year, 3 months ago
I live in Chelan County and I support the TTC and all the positive things it brings to the whole area!
ronlewis 1 year, 3 months ago
When the thousands (yes, thousands) of fans drive to the Town Toyota Center for events, they will discover Waterville, Entiat and Cashmere (along with Douglas County) and the rest of the little towns around here that we proudly call home. These people will come here for the first time, bringing dollars as tourist to an area that has seen increasing revenue from this source...... My 95 year old grand mother enjoys the Town Toyota Center and so does my 6 year old daughter and everyone in between. The benefit to our local youth is off the scale. I urge you to reconsider your position on this matter and realize the 20 cents per hundred dollars is not very much.......
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
How much longer is the White Elephant Arena supposed to be up and running before this massive influx of fans begin hitting the streets of Waterville? There is no increasing revenue due to the White Elephant Arena that can be objectively demonstrated. There is no meaningful increase in tourism. There is no influx of 'fans' shopping in Manson because of the WEA.
barleywine 1 year, 3 months ago
Should all pay for it just "because it's there? " Unfortunately, whatever plan is worked out —and I hope a reasonable one one is— yes. Even if just Wenatchee raises its taxes, we will all be affected — for shopping, restaurants, hotels, conferences, and of course entertainment. Wenatchee probably does need to raise its sales tax and impose higher business and hotel/motel taxes, as well as higher fees for those who rent or use the stadium, too. A county or region-wide referendum to raise the sales tax in this economic climate would likely be defeated. Ironically, I think Wenatchee would get far more support from the outside to pay for the Center if the city decided to solve this problem itself.
jbrook 1 year, 3 months ago
Even if the outlying communities didn't feel like they would benefit from saving the Center, they definately will feel the reprocussion when roads aren't able to be fixed or plowed, when the fire and law enforcement has to make more cutbacks, when the public schools in all of these NCW communities can't get their bonds funded. Just letting this thing go isn't an option. The results of not helping out now will have affects for years to come.
ronlewis 1 year, 3 months ago
This is already the case (roads aren't plowed / fixed, fire / law cutbacks, and public schools can't get bonds funded. Why not pay for something like this that will eventually bring revenue in? If nothing else, look at the benefit to local youth, elderly and everyone (I mean everyone) in between! The outlying communities WILL benefit from this. Why do you think they were so excited to participate in the beginning? Because they saw the HUGE potential for revenue in ALL the local communities around here.
lonedog3 1 year, 3 months ago
And I quote " The Wenatchee Wild raising thousands and thousands of dollars for local charities is nothing?" See! here is another wonderful idea and a way to save the WEA. The wild can hold a Save the WEA fund raiser and raise "thousands and thousands of dollars" to help pay down the debt that the City of Wenatchee has created for itself. see all of the wonderful positive ideas out there? pictures with the WEA to raise money now the wild fundraisers that will or can make "thousands and thousands of dollars". You supporters should have this WEA dept payed off in no time and fully operating in the profit. I do like the toll bridge idea.
muddydawgs 1 year, 3 months ago
If TTC does fail I do hope the people that vote against it will enjoy that 20.00 bill each year that they have such a tight grip on.
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
I will, thank you very much.
muddydawgs 1 year, 3 months ago
You're very welcome. I'm sure people will find much better things to do than support their community with $1.67 each month.
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
My jurisdiction is thinking of placing a sales tax increase on our ballot for our own infrastructure NEEDS. I choose to support the infrastructure NEEDS of my own community over the wants of another community for an entertainment facility that they over-extended themselves for. This is exactly why this type of facility should be handled in the private sector or; if they really feel that strongly about it, then they should have put it to a vote in Wenatchee to see if they were willing to tax themselves to support it. This way the long-term financing would have been arranged and committed up front before it was built like it was supposed to be.
muddydawgs 1 year, 3 months ago
I understand your point of view. I don't think a lot of people understand the benefits of this arena to our area and I believe those benefits ripple out into the surrounding communities. I don't think the good that comes from this facility is limited to Wenatchee City by boundry lines.
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
But are people willing to tax themselves for it? I think not. That's why it was developed in the manner that it was. As I posted earlier, if the City of Wenatchee wanted this and felt there was that much support for it, they should have put it on the ballot to see if a majority of the citizens were willing to tax themselves to support it. That's the way this is supposed to work. I think LINK is the biggest waste of taxpayer money in the valley, but at least it was voted on and approved by the majority of the citizens. While I don't agree with it, I accept it because it was implemented in the correct manner. the Town Toyota Center was not. Now to come to us after the fact and expect us to pony up a sales tax increase? - No thank you.
muddydawgs 1 year, 3 months ago
You can be snide about my comment "The Wenatchee Wild raise thousands and thousands of dollars for local charities" but it just shows how uneducated you are about the subject. The Apple Valley Education Fund, the Firefighters Assoc. and the Wellness Place are just a few charities that benefit. The reason the Wild are in Wenatchee is because we have the TTC. If the TTC closes, the Wild leave town and the end result is that our local charities, surrounding communites and citizens are the biggest losers. I'm sure there are plenty of communites out there that would love to have an organization like the Wild that cares about the community and gives back.
lonedog3 1 year, 3 months ago
jbrook: please explain how is the failure of the WEA going to affect or prevent the city of Entiat or chelan county or douglas county from plowing their streets? How is the failure of the WEA going to prevent these same cities from placeing bond measures for their own schools on the ballot and voting them in? How is the failure of the WEA going to force cutbacks of fire and police in these cities and counties? Me thinks you sipped too much of the kool-aid.
douglas 1 year, 3 months ago
One of my concerns is potential litigation costs. Yes, the 8 entities of the PFD are shielded by the agreement setting it up, but there is the probability that they will get sued by the bondholders in an attempt to find someone with money to pay them back. For the smaller entities (Rock Island, Entiat, Cashmere and Waterville) who have had to tighten their budgets due to shrinking revenues and potential state funding cutbacks, the potential for severe budget problems due to legal costs is high.
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
Which is exactly why you should stand behind the legally binding Inter-local Agreement and defend yourselves. All legal roads point to Wenatchee and Wenatchee only (The PFD doesn't have any money). They are the only entity that acted as a guarantor for the facility. It's the only reason it was even built. The cost of being saddled with financial liability for the Town Toyota Center now and down the road far outweigh what it might cost you to defend yourselves. To me, it's not so much about the .2% sales tax, it's the nullification of the Inter-local Agreement and the associated encumbrance of current and future financial liability that concerns me. A financial liability that simply does not exist today. Just my 2 cents.
douglas 1 year, 3 months ago
Alas, it's going to cost tax dollars from jurisdictions that don't have the money to prove their point. It's a rock and a hard place situation, and the choice for smaller entities may be between paying lawyers and fixing a broken water main.
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
I understand Doug. You have to do what you think best for your community after weighing your options. The other unintended consequence of this whole affair is the wedge this is going to drive through the valley. Who in their right mind is ever going to enter into another Inter-local Agreement to develop anything around here. Wenatchee really screwed the pooch on this one.
Gmullen 1 year, 3 months ago
It is true that the TTC is in Wenatchee and Wenatchee was the driving factor. But, if you tell me nobody from East Wenatchee, Cashmere, Entiat, Lake Chelan etc. uses this facility or benefits from having this facility, you are dead wrong. In the first 18 months of operation this facility brought in nearly 14 million dollars in economic impact from tourist and local spending. There have been over 450,000 attendees enjoying a concert or sporting event in the main arena. You cannot tell me that because you live in East Wenatchee that this does not impact you as well! Step up people and let's take care of this great facility. It's only 20 cents per $100 spent!!!!! I can't believe this is a big deal!
coolers53 1 year, 3 months ago
Gary I agree with you 100 percent, but the anti tax people do not want any tax, zero nada to pay for the ttc, as they are right the agreement limied Wenatchee to all the costs, they feel that if they allow any ttax increase then they will be obligated forever to the ttc, so they want to use the facility for those that do, b u t have no responsibility for payment. And I do understand how they feel and would voice my opinion the same way, I feel they should at least allow some leway on others opinions and let the people express how they feel. Wenatchee needs to buckle down and put a deal together to pay for the whole thing themselves.
H 1 year, 3 months ago
Gmullen, Would you please provide where you got those numbers from? I'm real interested in the breakdown of the impact of the 14 million.
stephmat 1 year, 3 months ago
Anyone who thinks this is just going to affect Wenatchee if the TTC goes down is looking at the situation through blinders. The repercussions of the economic damage it would cost ALL of the local communities will be much greater than the cost of debt. Next our elected officials may have got us into this mess..but it is our community debt. We owe the money. I would say anyone who thinks we should walk away from the debt is not someone who should be trusted in a business situation. Twenty Cents on every $100 you spend. Get over it...
lonedog3 1 year, 3 months ago
"In the first 18 months of operation this facility brought in nearly 14 million dollars in economic impact from tourist and local spending. There have been over 450,000 attendees enjoying a concert or sporting event in the main arena"
Let's see a complete break down on these figures, both money and attendees. If this is so why is the debt so far behind?
coolers53 1 year, 3 months ago
that would be only an average of 2500 per event over 18 months, which would be easy with all the wild sellouts and an average of about $777,000.0 a month in spending in Wenatchee and the region which would be pretty reasonable and may even be low.
ronlewis 1 year, 3 months ago
Dear Editor, Entering our 126 year of continuous farming, our family offers some advice to the folks involved with the Town Toyota Center: Keep at it and don't give up. Hard work, common sense and vast community support (along with a local sales tax increase) will prevail.
It will become apparent what works and doesn't work in our local area for maximizing profits at this excellent venue that We The People desperately need to keep functioning. Let the future benefit of Town Toyota Center be decided by the voters. I think Ken Stanton and the other county commissioners should let the voters of both counties decide what we want, instead of getting into a "best-idea" war with Steve Lacy. If Mayor Lacey's plan is better, use it. Let's get over our petty differences, work together and do what is best for the future of Town Toyota Center along with the entire North Central Washington region.
I am the 5th generation wheat rancher on Baumgardner Farms and support a 0.2% increase in sales tax to pay for this local investment into all of our futures.
H 1 year, 3 months ago
"Hard work, common sense and vast community support (along with a local sales tax increase) will prevail."
Hard work - the only hard work that the City of Wenatchee has done is try to dupe the other jursidictions into paying for their mistake.
Common sense - the City of Wenatchee has not common sense as evidenced by the decision to build the WAE against the recommendation of the professionals.
Vast community support - As has been stated by quite a few people those that think the WAE should be paid for with public money can open their wallets and donate as much as they want.
Local sales tax increase - No, see Vast community support above.
ronlewis 1 year, 3 months ago
H, I am offended that you have taken my words and twisted them around. It seems you do not understand ...... I refer to the hard work done for over 50 years by such loyal dedicated individuals of the Wenathcee Amature Hocky Assoc. (and other organizations and individuals) to bring this facility here. Common sense is NOT your obvious bias to the Wenatchee City Government, but, instead is what needs to be considered for this unit that is already constructed, being used and bringing in millions of dollars. Instead of being a gloom and doom type of person, perhaps you should start going to events at the TTC. This coming Monday evening, the Hockey Club is hosting a rally, you should show up and see first hand what community support really means!!!!
ronlewis 1 year, 3 months ago
A 0.2% tax increase = 20 cents for 100 dollars or 2 cents for each 10 dollars or 2 dollars per thousand dollars...... this is nothing in consideration of what we get!
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
PART ONE
What I am offended with, and find sadly pathetic nowadays, is the practice of using of children as tax-demanding shields. The tactic of using the ‘it's for the children' argument is like the Boy Who Cried Wolf..... Immediately suspect, over-used, and no longer credible.
Perhaps tax dollars should be spent to buy the Vue Dale drive-in and pay for rebuilding and operating it, since there are thousands of families liked going to watch movies there. Or how about tax dollars being used to build and operate a 500,000 square foot indoor shooting range? After all thousands of people in the area, young and old alike, love to shoot. Or how about the construction of a sooper-dooper multi-plex of indoor mini golf and bowling alleys? Or a huge indoor water slide? All using taxpayer dollars?
I have been to several White Elephant Arena events. That is how an entertainment venue is properly supported, by people who attend and pay for tickets, not by diverting tax dollars away from those things government is truly tasked to do.
The White Elephant Arena is NOT bringing in 'millions of dollars'. The White Elephant Arena is COSTING millions of dollars and tearing apart the finances of the only city that came up with the concept, developed the concept, approved the concept, planned the concept, and guaranteed the payment OF the concept. END PART ONE
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
PART TWO
I attended many of the meetings, right from the beginning, on the White Elephant Arena. I and many others made the point that the target audience was insufficient to make this Arena the self-supporting and profitable enterprise that Global stated would occur. Evidence for that was provided to the city council. Findings were handed over showing the failures of small arenas in which Global, like a new age Music Man, promoted to communities. None of this made a dent in the momentum for the White Elephant Arena. Half of the council and the mayor voted to continue with the project because they believed that profit from the White Elephant Arena would provide an income stream for the city of Wenatchee's general budget. None of the issues raised caused Wenatchee to perform a thorough background check into Global’s history of performance or of the fiscal health of all similar Arena projects.
The City of Wenatchee body politic, elected as representatives by the people of Wenatchee, voted several times to proceed with the project. It voted at least twice to guarantee to cover any fiscal shortfalls of the White Elephant Arena. It then voted to guarantee the bonds. Each of the votes that it had made over the next couple of years affirmed that this was a Wenatchee project, anchoring part of the Riverside Drive potion of Wenatchee's vision of a new age for its planned Riverfront Development project.
mwalker 1 year, 3 months ago
Re-run... SNORE!!!
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
Both groups of commissioners are not opposed to a vote by the people, as long as it is a vote put forward by each jurisdiction to decide whether or not that jurisdiction itself will raise the sales tax for its own voters. They are opposed to a single regional vote deciding to raise the tax on each individual jurisdiction.
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
Exactly!
Midauter 1 year, 3 months ago
In the past year, we fought hard to keep the Special Olympics Winter Games in our community. The Winter Games rely on the TTC as a venue for some of the main events. The Games bring a tremendous amount of money to our valley, not all of which is spent within the Wenatchee city limits. Come to any of the Winter Games events at TTC on the weekend of March 2-4 and ask participants where they’re from, where they’re staying, and where they’re eating.
Can we continue to hold on to the Winter Games without an ice arena? What will the loss of this type of event cost Northcentral Washington? I live in Wenatchee and will gladly support any solution which keeps TTC’s doors open, even if Wenatchee has to shoulder the entire burden. I’m hoping that those in other jurisdictions don’t deny they benefits they receive from TTC or the harm that may befall them, just to spite Wenatchee. Let’s work together to find a solution.
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
We had the Special Olympics here long before the TTC.
Midauter 1 year, 3 months ago
At the old ice arena ... not still an option
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
My point was that it would still be an option had the TTC never been built.
coolers53 1 year, 3 months ago
Wenatchee hasnt tried to dupe anyone into anything, they have asked for help to finance the ttc which would be paid back. Wenatchee did not vote for the ttc, You are saying that all of Wenatchee has no common sense, come on!! There are 3 0r 4 that are totally against anything to do with the ttc, I have read quite a few that will support the TTc.
H 1 year, 3 months ago
As has been stated before - when people post about the City of Wenatchee we are not posting about the citizens of Wenatchee, we are posting about the governing body of Wenatchee ie City Council and Mayor.
coolers53 1 year, 3 months ago
the previous admin had no common sense, It would have been brilliant if it would have worked right? hindsight!! Why not give the current admin a chance to see if they can put it together?
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
I'm waiting.... Just as long as it doesn't include Douglas County having to raise our sales tax for it.
coolers53 1 year, 3 months ago
Betsy I agree with you, However you are pounding your head on a wall in asking the anti tax people for any help, they will respond with Wenatchee is the only one liable per the interlocal agreement, that they had no say in the building of the ttc , no vote etc and they want to keep it that way, Even though we have heard from many people outside of Wenatchee that have responded on the economic help of the ttc. The Douglas countycommissioners and Chelan have said no to a tax proposal for now. So that means that Wenatchee has to step up and I think they should to try to fund it all.
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
Yep.
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
There are two separate financial issues albeit linked as to the financial health of the PFD corporation. One... the payment to the bondholders. Two... the ability of the White Elephant Arena to support its own overhead.
The current issue of bankruptcy is about number two; the White Elephant Arena (the PFD) is simply failing as a business to convert its facility into income. There are not enough people available to attend all the venues offered and fill the seats. The fact that there are a few highly successful sports and entertainment draws are not enough to make the White Elephant Arena viable. Seats need to be filled on 4 or more events per week, almost every week, to pay for the overhead and to begin building a maintenance and equipment budget to replace the costly systems in the Arena as they begin to break down. That is why there is now talk of preparing for a possible bankruptcy.
Can big name entertainment be brought in to correct this problem? Well, this Arena is not big enough to provide gate receipts large enough to afford the cost of said big name entertainers.. Unless, of course, ticket prices can be raised high enough to compensate for a smaller potential audience. But raising ticket prices high enough has a big downside... the small existing target audience will grow even smaller. This has already happened.
So now what is being talked about is not just providing tax money in order to pay off the bonds, but to also supplement the failure of the White Elephant Arena to cover its monthly operating expenses.
I will support the White Elephant Arena by attending some of its offerings, as I've already done. But as a taxpayer, I will not throw good money after bad with my tax dollars. The amount of the taxes I would pay for this entertainment venue, however small they might be, is not what my taxes should be supporting.
fjell32 1 year, 3 months ago
I believe that GMULLEN and STEPHMAT have an understanding about TTC facility. Let me add an idea: Let us look at the total picture, Either we spend a slight tax increase or pay non regional lawyers plus the cost incurred. Here it is : I checked my Chelan Co PUD bill it was $64.37 for Jan 2012 --- Now compair my cost of the same power from PSE in Seattle my bill would be 124.29.. YES, I can pay a sales tax of .01 and have money left over. CHECK IT OUT ON LINE.
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
Your decision to make, but don't pretend that you can make that decision for me.
akbluesman 1 year, 3 months ago
Some very peceptive comments, people.
I think we can sum this up by realizing that resources are limited, not infinite, and everybody cannot have everything they want. So - let the people who want this, the user group, pay for it. Increase fees, borrow money and put their homes and businesses up for collateral, whatever, but dont beat it out of the taxpayers with sales taxes and property taxes becuase this puts the burden on the poorest among us who dont want it and cant afford it. Why should some single mom struggling to buy food and medicine be forced to pay for a giant entertainment center for the well to do?
ronlewis 1 year, 3 months ago
0.2% tax increase = 20 cents per 100 dollars? NO PROPERTY TAXES WILL PAY FOR THIS..... Only Sales Tax. Single Mom could see benefit in many forms such as great concerts locally or perhaps her children could become involved with the WAHA (Wenatchee Amature Hocky Assoc.).
ronlewis 1 year, 3 months ago
"H" - The Town Toyota Center (TTC) has the support of many, many people wth common sense. The local Wenatchee Amature Hockey Association has invested money, many years of hard work and common sense into the TTC that has benefited thousands of young folks. H, have you been to an event at the TTC? perhaps an exciting Wenatchee Wild hockey game? perhaps one of the Walt Disney shows? or maybe one of the Merle Haggard shows, whom I personally have ties to. I heard Merle loved his first visit in Wenatchee. Vast community support - Dear "H", show up Monday afternoon with ice skates and get your picture taken with the "vast community supporters" that understand what TTC means to the future of this valley! Local sales tax increase - 0.2%....are you kidding! This is not very much increase for such a huge benefit. Better to keep tax dollars local.
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
Yes - very local. Like in my pocket. No way on a tax increase in Douglas County for this.
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
You are stating that the measure of support for a consumer enterprise is by one's willingness to force others to pay taxes for it? Support is no longer gauged by the free market concept of the consumer choosing to willingly pay for the product or service of his or her choice? And here I thought, wrongly I guess, that by attending events and paying for tickets that I was demonstrating my support.
lonedog3 1 year, 3 months ago
NO PROPERTY TAXES WILL PAY FOR THIS..... Why cannot property tax increases in wenatchee help pay for the WEA fiasco ron? will raising wenatchee property taxes hit YOU in the pocket and by God that just aint a gonna happen? you people have drank entirely too much purple and gold kool-aid preventing you from hearing the politicians when they say the .2% increase WILL NOT be enought. guess what that means--yep they come back for more tax increases then more. The state is going to raise taxes on fuel and fuel related products PLUS increase the sales tax statewide. I think your single mothers will be trying to pay for housing, food, medical, auto insurance ect ect rather than attending the WEA or getting her children into the expensive sport of hockey. All of these "vast community supporters and WEA users need to ante up. do fund raisers, be like like the church and tieth your money to the WEA.If you so worried about paying out of state bankruptcy lawyers go to the meetings and demand they hire local banckrupty lawyers. I am still waiting for a breakdown on all of the figures someone threw out there 14 million in profit, and am also still waiting for a breakdown on how the WEA sucking in more and more of our tax money is benifiting Waterville, Douglas County Entiat ect ect. Wenatchee is the only city that would ever gain, if the WEA was to ever make a dime in profit, since all the hotels and reastrants are there. There are many ways the City of wenatchee can raise it's own taxes to offset the cost of the WEA without cutting the needed public services.
mrmj 1 year, 3 months ago
It is evident that everyone is tired of trying to convince people of the value of the WEA. I do not attend events there because we cannot afford it. I pay taxes and do not want to be stuck with someone's mistake. I live in Wenatchee. With that said, I was in Seattle a few years ago and we went somewhere and had to give our zip code, and if it was outside of the area paying for the venue, they paid more for a ticket. This would go over like a lead balloon here but it is an idea. I will not vote for another tax when our income is low.
Midauter 1 year, 3 months ago
So if Wenatchee goes it alone, we could charge residents of East Wenatchee, Chelan and Douglas Counties more for using the TTC for events scheduled there? Great idea.
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
If that's how you feel you can best market the occasional event at the TTC, then knock yourselves out.
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
"So if Wenatchee goes it alone, we could charge residents of East Wenatchee, Chelan and Douglas Counties more for using the TTC for events scheduled there? Great idea"
Several people have stated the same thing over the years that White Elephant Arena funding arguments have taken place. This seems to show a profound misunderstanding of the core problem facing the White Elephant Arena: YOU NEED TO SELL MORE TICKETS, not fewer tickets. What is necessary to make the WEA self-supporting is having at least four fill-every-seat-in-the-house events during at least 45 weeks per year. That is not happening. Combine the Wild (a great fun event), the Ice shows, the Special Olympics, and the rest of the entertainment events and how many events are there per year? That's right, not enough. And placing a surcharge on every ticket sold to people who don't live in Wenatchee is one method to assure that the status quo remains.
tessi 1 year, 3 months ago
I live in Waterville and we need our sewer system replaced. We will be taxed here for this because we live here. I SHOP in Wenatchee and therefore will be paying taxes for the TTC if Wenatchee poses a tax for the purpose of repayment of the TTC. The rest of the area was counted in for population numbers only. Would it be fair for Waterville and surrounding areas to ask Wenatchee to pay for sewer replacement because you might stop by to use the restroom? Or help pay for a new roof for our school because you might attend an event. We are paying for a new community water well and rates go up "every year". There is a need to replace the schools roof ,streets are in need of repair. Businesses are closing down .TTC does NOT bring any busines to Waterville. There are only 12 rooms in the hotel (which is closed 6 months out of the year) WE NEED OUR $$$$$ TO STAY HERE!!!!!
Taxguru 1 year, 3 months ago
" I think there are a lot of people out there, not on this forum, that are having a hard time and when faced with increased State sales taxes, new fuel taxes and city/county levies just cannot afford more of their money paying for someone else's entertainment facility. "
Hogwash..!!! You are INCORRECT again. The structure is in place..It is built..!!! We will all pay for it one way or another, there is no going back to the builder and throwing them the keys. Thus, whether it be the damage to your car from the potholes in the streets of Wenatchee or the extra $20 in sales tax for the year.....All of us in the Region will be paying in one way or another....!!!!
Taxguru 1 year, 3 months ago
Your emotional rambling means zilch...!!!
The debt for the TTC will be paid back in one way or another by everyone in the region. Does NOT matter if someone is having a difficult time paying their bills or not. We can choose the smaller .02% sales tax or the larger repair bills to our vehicles for insufficiently provided necessary services. We will ALL pay. Bankruptcy will not change that.
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
Hmmmmm...potholes. That is a great idea. Wenatchee should not only quit repairing potholes, but should make them larger and deeper. Heck, the city should start making big, new potholes. In this way, large numbers of non-Wenatchee cars will be damaged and will have to be repaired by the shops in Wenatchee. This will bring in more tax revenue.
Now if only the city can recruit gang members to bash away at cars with sledge hammers, as the cars sit at the red lights that they didn't run. That will encourage more red-light camera runners, bringing in even more revenue.
coolers53 1 year, 3 months ago
Dave bugg, You should reread what you just posted, you are losing it as far as this issue goes, maybe an apology is needed, this is way out of line.
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
snicker
Apologize for what? For hugging trees? For eating meat? For being a racist? For being a communist? Apologize for being homophobic? For being religious? For not being religious enough? Pray tell, what was my sin? What was it that you think I lost?
coolers53 1 year, 3 months ago
I have somewhat admired your staunch opposition to any taxs, but your out of line to encourage anyone let alone gang members to bash cars, and to encourage red light runners??? David your reps have ruled out a vote of any tax increase for the jurisdictions, we all know that is not going to happen, we pretty much know that if Wenatchee dosnt stand up and do it themselves, they pretty much are headed for Banko, So I guess what I am saying is it with all of the continued comments over and over, there is no position or change that you can effect anymore, basically the reps have all stood for the position you want. I would like to see all help out, but that aint gonna happen, and as for me personally it dosnt make any difference one way or another, so please tell everyone we all know your posiion on this What is it that you want and I really hope it isnt to advoate , even if it was joking for Gang Members to wrec havoc, that isnt even funny.
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
..
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
"I have somewhat admired your staunch opposition to any taxs, but your out of line to encourage anyone let alone gang members to bash cars, and to encourage red light runners???"
Please, oh please tell me that you're not serious. You mean that you really are unable to distinguish my reply as satirical to the previous post? Wow!!! Believe me, and I say this with a sincere desire to help you out, that what I wrote is not the problem here.
coolers53 1 year, 3 months ago
I dont need any help thank you, but you wrote it and with the gang problems in Wenatchee and all over some may take it out of context and I am sure there are some that would like to.
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
"I dont need any help thank you,.."
If you believed, as your post seems to indicate, that I was seriously stating that Wenatchee should hire gang members to bash cars, I think you do.
"..but you wrote it.."
Yes, I did, and with a specific context that is hard to miss.
"... and with the gang problems in Wenatchee and all over some may take it out of context.."
That is not my problem, nor is it yours.
"...and I am sure there are some that would like to..."
We already know that you did, so I guess you fall under those whom you catergorize as "some".
lonedog3 1 year, 3 months ago
so he thinks that are not alot of people out there struggling to survive and cannot afford to bear the brunt of another new round of taxes forced pon their already meger strained household budgets? sad! must be a mitt supporter that could care less about the poor.
jb999 1 year, 3 months ago
Most of the victims of great disasters never see it coming, not because the disaster is unforeseeable but because they refuse to look or because they refuse to acknowledge or are unable to understand what they are seeing.
Most survivors of great disasters generally have two things in common - a large helping of luck and they took action.
This post-TTC debate [yes, "post" - the game is over] is a local deer-in-the-headlights moment. Most people have demonstrated neither any ability to understand this dilemma nor any sense to move away from the danger.
All of the rhetoric on earth will not alter the economic fundamentals of this situation. The construction debt can only be paid with human suffering and the operating costs exceed revenues as they always will. However, to abandon this cesspool wound bring a different set of suffering.
dryside 1 year, 3 months ago
I haven't had a chance to read all the posts today, so this may have been touched on. Maybe the City of Wenatchee could sell the facilities to the Colville Tribe. They could put a Casino in the concession area and still use the event area for events. Just a thought.
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
Wenatchee won't allow gambling in the City Limits.
dryside 1 year, 3 months ago
I'll bet they would find a way.
coolers53 1 year, 3 months ago
Isnt gambling only allowed by the Stae of Washington only on tribal lands, reservation lands??
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
Mill bay isn't on the reservation is it?
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
Also, East Wenatchee has two casinos and they aren't on a reservation either.
JimboBear 1 year, 3 months ago
I'm not knowledgeable on Mill Bay, but the East Wenatchee versions are not Indian Gaming casinos either, are they? There are many differences, not the least of which are the types of games allowed. As I recall, slots are not legal at any but Indian Gaming casinos. Non Indian casinos are failing throughout the state because of the differences between the two. I don't patronize either type, but I was involved with building quite a few, so have some knowledge of the tribal advantages.
mcniel 1 year, 3 months ago
Yes, it is.
JimboBear 1 year, 3 months ago
Basically yes, Coolers, but there is a way around it. The Kalispell's casino out at Airway Heights is a good example. The Spokane tribe is still upset about that one as I understand it. If I recall correctly, the property on which it sits was purchased by the Kalispells and then they established an annex to their reservation lands at that location. Like I say, it can be done but I don't think it's that common. Surely, I don't think we'll be seeing the Colvilles doing the same with property within the Wenatchee city limits.
jb999 1 year, 3 months ago
Well, hell, as long as we're just going to stand in the middle of road and stare at the headlights, we might just as well hold a seance, hum some silly syllables, and pray for a miracle that will absolve us of all responsibility for saving our own hides.
Like LiveFREEorDIE said, "stick a fork in it".
As an aside, CArch, if you are sincerely interested and not merely being as caustic and sarcastic as you sound, then I am willing to answer your questions here. Otherwise, you can contact me personally at jackieblack999 [at] yahoo [dot] com where we can really play.
JimboBear 1 year, 3 months ago
". . . after all I'm just an "uneducated, simpleton, hillbilly, redneck from a backwater"
Well, that includes me too Chris, but you can't condemn me for being born and bred, raised and educated in Wenatchee, can you?
JimboBear 1 year, 3 months ago
Last I knew, one was .2% and the other .02%. I think it's called 2/10 of a percent and 2/100 of a percent, just expressed in fractional vs decimal terms. That hasn't changed, has it? Do I need to go back and get some more continuing education? I sure hope not because it seems like they tried to change mathematics around on me back around 1975 and I didn't like it then either!
JoeBlue 1 year, 3 months ago
Whether or not you use the TTC, it has value and makes this a better place to live. I don't go to the library. I don't use the Loop Trail. I don't use the many parks in the area. I don't ride the bus. But they all have value and they make this a better place to live. And I don't mind helping pay for any of them.
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
The difference being that these things were put to the people to approve a tax on themselves before they were developed. The TTC was not. In fact, it's only in existence because WENATCHEE pledged to act as a guarantor for any shortfalls. Even the lender had qualms about this way back then. All we're saying is that because of this guarantee, it's WENATCHEE's problem to solve. Had they not provided this guarantee, it never would have been built.
lonedog3 1 year, 3 months ago
noe of the other facilities you mention joeblue are forceing the city of wenatchee into situation of bankruptcy. how does the WEA improve peoples lives makeing this a better place to live? other than some hockey games with basically the same people attending over and over the WEA sits empty sucking up operating costs. something is driveing up taxes while forceing severe cuts in city services is not an improvement nor an enhanchment to peoples lives. the city of wenatchee wants everyone to bail them out rather than helping themselves out of this mess THEIR politicans created AGAINST better judgement. instead of whining and crying trying to bleed more tax money from the other communities and counties Wenatchee needs to step up and fix THEIR mess. the people of chelan county need to remember that the PUD has also come out with their plans to raise water and power rates by 6% along with the govenors desire to raise state sales taxes AS WELL as higher taxes on fuel and fuel related by-products. towns need school bonds to pass for their schools, counties need to increase funding for their road projects and their law enforcement. bottom line is the fact wenatchee needs to fix dennis johnsons mess and shoud have been working on it 4 years ago before they got to this point. leave our tax dollars alone!
muddydawgs 1 year, 3 months ago
"how does the WEA improve people's lives makeing this a better place to live?". Myself and several others on this board have already answered your question. Insanity is defined as repeating the same behavior and expecting different results. I'm keeping my sanity, won't explain it again.
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
..
davebugg 1 year, 3 months ago
Hmmmm... A credit downgrade for Wenatchee, two credit downgrades for the PFD, Wenatchee facing an austerity budget, the city reducing infrastructure maintenance and repair, reduced city public safety services, parks and swimming pool needing to find another source of revenue to stay open at present levels, increased taxes and fees for Wenatchee residents, the PFD facing bankruptcy, etc, etc....
iansfolks 1 year, 3 months ago
We can argue both sides of the fence and get where we are already...NOWHERE! The bottom line should be for all jurisdictions to allow a vote of the people to decide whether or not they will or will not support the Town Toyota Center. It's simple...let the people decide! I, for one, do not like the fact that a small group of individuals are trying to decide for the people affected. Put it to a vote,let the voters decide, and live with the outcome!
FootballNut 1 year, 3 months ago
Welcome to the club Bruce. I, for one, do not like the fact that a small group of individuals (Mayor Johnson & 3 Council Members) from a jurisdiction I can't vote in could encumber the rest of us with debt and taxes we never agreed to. Therefore, let Wenatchee solve their own problem. This is not Douglas County's problem and I will fight tooth and nail any effort that attempts to encumber Douglas County with any financial liablity or tax for the Town Toyota Center.
lonedog3 1 year, 3 months ago
you know looking at the staff galeries from the hockey game friday night it takes a lot away from the supporters as that arena was VERY empty. kind of hard to back a claim of all this support with that many empty seats.
akbluesman 1 year, 3 months ago
You guys are SOOO funny with the back and forth. BUT one of you hit on the solution - a CASINO!! That would make money for Wenatchee; you wouldnt be able to get a hotel room in town, lots of tax revenue, wow, what an idea!! We have Native corporations here in Alaska that own and operate casinos in Vegas and could put this together and come up with a real money maker for Wenatchee!! If any of the local Wenatchee pols are paying attention, get on this.
coolers53 1 year, 3 months ago
A casino would be great, I would go all the time, there are some hurdles that I know of and probably a lot more. Wenatchee cant just sell the ttc, there are state taxs involved that comes back from the state, I think part of it was for construction and then for maintenance etc, now in default its going to the bondholders. Wenatchee overwhelmingly voted no to gambling in Wenatchee. The state laws say casinos of this type in Washington has to be on tribal lands, Wenatchee ttc is in the city. The big one, if we could sell it who would pay 42 plus million for it and face huge remodeling costs. If it was sold lets say for 20 or 30 million, Wenatchee would still have the balance to pay. Not even to mention the parking down there which is a shame. So if you could get the native corps to buy the ttc for 42 million, then get the city to vote for gambling, and allow the state of wash to sell the place, then quadruple the parking, I would think it would be great.
Sign in to comment