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Parents charged in death of teen

Thursday, February 9, 2012

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OKANOGAN — Carlton parents who police say unsuccessfully tried to faith-heal their son back to health have been charged with second-degree murder.

The charges against Gregory P. Swezey, 47, and Garnet JaLea Swezey, 45, in Okanogan County Superior Court come nearly three years after Zachery, 17, died of a burst appendix at their home on March 18, 2009.

The family belongs to the Church of the First Born, which believes in faith healing. The day before Swezey died, elders from the church came to the Swezey home, prayed for him, and anointed him with olive oil.

The boy had been sick for two-and-a-half days before he died. His father told police that they first thought he was ill from a sandwich that didn’t taste right, and later believed he had the flu.

But charging documents, filed Feb. 2, also indicate that Greg Swezey told investigators he knew 10 to 15 minutes before his son died that he was going to die. He also told detectives that he asked his son if he wanted to go to the hospital, and Zach declined.

“Family members were aware that Zach was seriously ill prior to his death,” said a report filed with charges from Okanogan County Sheriff’s detective Kreg Sloan. “Family members were also aware that Zach was going to die before his death; yet there was no effort, at any time, to obtain medical assistance,” the report stated.

But Greg Swezey also told police that they don’t force their faith on their children. “Our kids have a choice. At no time did Zachery ask to go to the doctor. In four months, he will be 18,” the report quotes Swezey as saying soon after his son’s death.

The report also said that the mortality rate for appendicitis is estimated at between 1 and 2 per 100,000 people, and that it is medically treatable.

“The (state) Court of Appeals determined, in part, that the failure to seek medical care would not be justified on religious grounds,” the report said.

Prosecutor Karl Sloan, who is Kreg Sloan’s brother, said this morning that he based his decision to charge the Swezeys on state law that finds faith is not a reason for failing to seek medical attention for your children.

“We have to try cases sometimes that are very unpopular,” he said, adding that decisions to charge someone cannot be based on public sentiment.

He said unless prosecutors reach a plea deal with the Swezeys, it will be up to a jury to determine whether they should be held accountable for their son’s death.

Sloan also filed an alternative first-degree manslaughter charge. A criminal summons file Monday requires the Swezeys to appear in court to hear charges against them on March 5.

Sloan said a heavy caseload, which included other murder cases, prevented his office from filing charges sooner. He said the Swezeys were not considered a flight risk, and the community’s safety was not at risk.

K.C. Mehaffey: 997-2512

mehaffey@wenatcheeworld.com

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Mr_Brantner     1 year, 3 months ago

It's about time someone got onto this case. I was starting to think it was under the carpet. I only hope there is justice for this kid.. He was only 17 shame on the parents for deciding on the boys fate.

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jbar     1 year, 3 months ago

I am dismayed at the intentions of the state to make this family defend a religous freedom in court. When should a family decide that a 17 year old (who could be tried for a crime in a state court as an adult)should not have the right to decide that he or she can wait for medical attention. The idea that there was a moment in time at which religious belief should be put aside and the "interest" of the state take over is arbitrary at best.

Do the Sloans have a bias against this church? Do we have any one outside of Okanagon county advising the Sloans to prosecute or not? Are we facing an "official" wall of "this is what we are going to do, don't try to tell us differently."

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trebor462     1 year, 3 months ago

This kid was a MINOR! The state has a obligation to protect minors. Just like they pass laws against pedophiles, they pass laws against child endangerment and this was just that.

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Chuck     1 year, 3 months ago

Fine, but if we follow that road to its forseeable wall, your way would have the state removing children from homes on the grounds that their parents' faith puts said children at risk.

And honestly, do we really want to go there?

If we do, words on the street and in the courtrooms could get pretty ugly in a hurry.

And I've met Sloan. Knew him to be a practicing Catholic who ran a successful small town legal practice in those days. He's a good man, regardless of any personal disagreement I may want to see in his reasoning on this.

After all, this is NOT an easy case to take sides on, either way.

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lorimakesquilts     1 year, 3 months ago

"When should a family decide that a 17 year old (who could be tried for a crime in a state court as an adult)should not have the right to decide that he or she can wait for medical attention."

How about when not receiving medical attention will result in his preventable death. That seems like a pretty good time to me. His decision not to go for medical care was a direct result of the lies they and their religion fed to him. I have no doubt this is an unbearable situation for them, but they brought it on themselves. Their actions, or lack thereof I should say, are criminal.

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Chuck     1 year, 3 months ago

This case is tricky; and honestly just when I get to thinking one way on it, the opinion shifts to the other side.

The loss of a child is tragic. No need to expand on that thought.

However, religious freedom means nothing if it does not also protect belief systems other than our own.

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mountainlion     1 year, 3 months ago

I'm so glad they have filed these charges against the parents. This boy did not have to die a slow, painful death.

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Annsboy     1 year, 3 months ago

I could never understand this. Didn't Jesus say "the whole need no physician, but them who are sick"? Take him to the doctor already!

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nickwinters     1 year, 3 months ago

Two verses that I remembered having to do with faith:

Matthew 17:20

He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

This verse is interesting to me on multiple levels, but mainly because it is the disciples who are questioning faith. These are the individuals who actually followed Jesus around and many of them literally witnessed healings etc. However, even many direct followers seemed to lack the quality of faith that performs miracles.

James 2:14-26

"14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."

This verse is also interesting. It points out that faith often needs some sort of action. You are believing that God will take care of you, but you are not simply thinking that you are in your own bubble. When God told Noah that there would be a flood, doubters pointed and laughed. What did Noah do? He believed that God would bring the flood. However, he did not simply sit and wait for the flood and expect God to keep hime afloat for weeks on end. No, he had faith and took action, by building the arc. God saw to it that his faith on action would keep him from drowning and survive the storm.

The same could be said for faith healing. One must have faith in God's healing. However, one should also take action (through doctors). Who's to say that God's healing can't come in the form of a capable doctor?

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1anonymous1     1 year, 3 months ago

For those of you who don't know the Swezey family, shame on you for passing judgement. I was very close with Zakk (that's how he liked it spelled). I went to school with him, we were the same age. He was a very talented, intelligent and wonderful person. As are his parents. While I am not a person of faith, and do not agree with their religious guidelines, in no way do I feel that the Swezeys should have to face this sort of harassment. They are wonderful parents and were great members of the community. They were proud donors to the athletic clubs as well as other extracurricular activities. They are a family always willing to help another in need. I had plenty of talks with Zakk and his brothers about their faith. Not to try to judge them, but to try to understand. They all said that their parents never forced the religion on them, and that they freely chose to believe the way they did. Never once did I hear them complaining of being treated poorly. I wish you could have been there for the memorial service and the funeral. The entire Pateros High School gymnasium was full. The baseball team was in their garb, and retired Zakk's jersey. The band played his favorite songs. Zakk's friends spoke about their feelings, but at no point in time did ANYONE accuse them of doing wrong. They only expressed sentiment for their loss. Everyone who could drive, had packed cars full of friends and family for the drive to the cemetary. The graveside service was beautiful and tasteful. The parents, were distraught as any parents who had lost a child. Those of you who are condemning Jalea and Greg, are pitiful people. They are not murderers, and they are not dangerous people. They were actively practicing their right as AMERICAN CITIZENS to practice the religion of their choice and they upheld those beliefs throughout all of this pain and suffering. Do all the readers here and the Swezey's of keeping your ignorance to yourself unless you know first hand what it was like losing Zakk.

Rest in peace bud! We still miss you.

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bc2011     11 months, 3 weeks ago

I agree with this 100% RIP ZAKK! <3

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Christina_4     11 months, 2 weeks ago

I am sorry for the loss of Zakk and those who were close to him my heart really does go out to you. You have a right to your opinion just as everyone else on here does as "AMERICAN CITIZENS". The bottom line here is this....if this were anyone else would you feel the same? You mention this is not your religion, although you attempted to understand it. This family could be the Clevers, although it does not change the fact that the parental unit did not seek help when they should have. Only God is the judge that is my belief and I pray for these parents at the loss of a child, although being believers in God they know the judicial system does have the right to hold them accountable for their actions.
The parental unit took no action other than prayer and lie awaiting a miracle, although it states in the paper that they knew he was going to die before it happened just through seeing him going downhill. The fact is they being the leaders of their home could have taken action, but chose not to and it is unfortunatly why Zakk is no longer alive. They were responsible for Zakk's life and did not protect it and now he is gone. With every action there is a consequence and this is theirs. Everyone makes mistakes and it is a ripple affect. Their church is probably going to think on this and change some procedure hopefully in the future and that is how we learn and evolve. Only God knows the answers and in time they will be revealed.

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mountainlion     1 year, 3 months ago

They would not have lost him had they gotten him medical treatment.

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1anonymous1     1 year, 3 months ago

You just completely missed my entire point. They are a good family, doing what they know best how to do. Neither of their other sons who are both well above the age of 18 have chosen to seek medical attention. So before you go spouting off about what you think is right, put yourself in their shoes, and respect the fact that other people believe differently than you do.

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lorimakesquilts     1 year, 3 months ago

It's simple, I cannot respect a belief that that ends in needless death. They don't deserve respect, they sat there, did nothing, and let their son die when he didn't have to.

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umadbra     1 year, 3 months ago

I am glad the parents will be held accountable for their negligence.

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mountainlion     1 year, 3 months ago

rachel, plain and simple they murdered their son and therefore are being held accountable. They failed to seek medical attention for their son who was in pain and dying. Please don't be so ignorant.

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bc2011     11 months, 3 weeks ago

mountainlion: THEY murdered their son huh? they are the ones who refused to let him go to the hospital?? NO! so why dont YOU stop being so ignorant and have some stinkin respect!

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1anonymous1     1 year, 3 months ago

You are calling me ignorant? Maybe you should better know the medical neglect laws then. There is exemption for actively practicing families of faith who choose to not seek medical attention. The Swezeys are actively practicing and they believe with every ounce of their being that what they did was the right thing to do because they stuck to their belief system. If Zakk had asked to go to the hospital, they would have taken him. no questions asked. But since Zakk never asked, and I do not doubt that, they didn't. Double check your "facts" before you start judging this family just because you don't understand or agree.

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lorimakesquilts     1 year, 3 months ago

And those laws are being challenged all over the country. How many children have to die before this stops? The lies that these faith healing religions spread are killing children! It's child abuse that has led to a death. I have little sympathy for them or their criminal faith.

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Christina_4     11 months, 2 weeks ago

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA BURN......SSSSSSsssss!!!!! (Mountainlion) 1anonymous1 is right about the facts lol next time be a little more tactful and I am sure others would respond better.

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mountainlion     1 year, 3 months ago

He was a minor. His parents should have gotten him medical help especially when they knew he was dying. There's no excuse for this and it's only right they have been charged with murder.the whole thing is sad, but they need to be held accountable.

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1anonymous1     1 year, 3 months ago

past the age of 15 a minor has the right to refuse or accept medical treatment. they could have taken him. and when they asked, he said no! it was his choice! do you not understand that Zakk was true to his faith?

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mountainlion     1 year, 3 months ago

What I do understand is that he would be alive today if his parents had sought medical treatment. Instead, he died a slow painful death and they are responsible for it so murder charge is absolutely appropriate. That's a fact.

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1anonymous1     1 year, 3 months ago

Did you even know Zakk, Melanie? Because if you did, and you know his family and their beliefs, you wouldn't be talking this way. So before you start passing such "factual" judgement, know what you're talking about truly.

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saints82     1 year, 3 months ago

So I think the thing that irritates me more than anything about this case and similar cases, is not just from the medical stand point of i,t which I know so well being a nurse, but that Luke, one of Jesus' disciples was a doctor. I think that God works through his people who He allows to have the knowledge of helping people. We are here to do His work and this is not the old testament. God doesn't just come down and do these outstanding miracles all the time like He once did. Things changed when Jesus died on the cross. It's just sad when such interpretations are taken so literally and someone so young had to die over something that is so easily taken care of these days. I have witnessed many miracles working in the ER and ICU and all I'm saying is I do what I know God has allowed me to do. My heart goes out to the parents that lost their son, but at the same time I am sad that such a young kid lost his life at what I look at as just being naive.

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mountainlion     1 year, 3 months ago

Thank you, Babette. I totally agree. * didn't know Zakk and don't know his parents. I do know he would be alive today if not for the parents being neglectful.

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Tim     1 year, 3 months ago

" I do know he would be alive today if not for the parents being neglectful."

There was no neglect, it was very intentional. They followed their faith and although I disagree with their decision I do not believe they should be criminally liable.

A seventeen year old girl can decide without parental approval to abort her baby, why can't a seventeen year old boy decide not to go to the doctor. Someones child dies either way.

What I see here that scares me is the precedent. Faith is no longer a personal choice. It must be state approved.

By the way, those of us with faith do believe He was healed that day. He is alive and healthy with his Lord and Savior.

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anonymous408     1 year, 3 months ago

@1anonynmous1: I am with you on this.I went to school with Zakk too.He was such an awesome kid. He was loved by everyone. Anyone that knows the family, knows that he was not being neglected. Respect his family. Shame on all of you who are judging the family with out knowing them or the facts. Really, who are you to judge ? Zakk would have gone to hospital as he asked. No doubt about it. If he didn't want to go, that was the choice he made.Can't beleive you guys are so judging, and what do you beleive in, do you even beleive in the Lord or anything?? wow. He is now with the Lord in a better place. RIP Zakk. You will always be missed.

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mountainlion     1 year, 3 months ago

He would be alive today if he had gotten medical attention. That's why we have the wonderful doctors and nurses. Thank God for them. Same opinion and it won't change. Parents hae been charged with murder and this is right. And yes, he is in Heaven. You're ignorant or possibly the same religion. Done with this posting. You're brain washed.

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Tim     1 year, 3 months ago

Now that's real mature!

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bc2011     11 months, 3 weeks ago

This is disgusting mountainlion. Your horrible. THIS MAKES ME SICK!!!!

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Christina_4     11 months, 2 weeks ago

What I would like to know is why the Wenatchee World has not deleted this comment? This is hurtful and definitly not okay for "mountainlion" to call someone else "brain washed" due to his/her religion or beliefs. This is not doing any good. Mountainlion You have stated your opinion and that you "won't change", so my question is why do you keep responding and fueling the fire??? The parents have been sentenced and done with, you have stated your opinion and it has been heard why go back and forth with people hurting over the loss of Zakk? if you have that much time on your hands I have weeds you could pull for a while until you gain a little humility?

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KelzyJ     1 year, 3 months ago

I feel, in the long run, this whole thing is more of a statement of fears of "what if". While it is outrageous, and ridiculous I'm am sure the thought behind all this is people taking it to the next level. Whats not to say someone will create a religion where it is okay to sacrifice people in the name of their God. Like I said it is ridiculous, but one has to admit people will think that way. The thought is, with this case,"If we don't do something about this small thing, people will take advantage of it". I know its just as dumb as "If we let gay people get married, then dogs will get married and Lady Gaga will rule the world." but we all know there are people who think that.

While I myself think it was wrong and they should have taken him to a Dr, I understand it being part of their beliefs. One half of me wants to yell saying they had to know what was wrong because in this day and age there is internet, and they could have looked up his symptoms, they had plenty of time to look it up before it got to that point. In that case they should have known LONG before he was going to die if he didn't get medical help. And if their religion dose not allow them to use internet, they should have just packed up and been Amish because there is no way he was able to go to a public high school and not use the internet. THEN there is the other half of me that says, its was what they felt was right. They as parents did their job and fallowed their beliefs as well as making sure it was what he wanted. We have to respect their choices, even if we feel it was wrong. Because if we start letting the government decide what we believe then WE might as well move to a country where this is already happening.

In conclusion I see both sides, but agree this is being taken too far by charging the family. This is not by my personal feelings, but by my understanding of peoples rights and freedom and I feel that is more important.

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agomez0811     1 year, 3 months ago

No one, has the right to criticize Swezey's parents ,for I know if he was alive would argue its disrespectful to judge individuals you don't know physically or mentally. His parents never pressured their believes ,for I who was his friend stepped out the normal conversations of the youth to better understand their form of life. Zakk loved his parents deeply for they stood by his side at EVERY event he participated not caring the distance to support the character he was developing. The death of Zakk impacted many, for his smile and loving character stuck in our memory. But as I remember many of conversations between the many classes we had together and wrestling a sport he pushed me every year to never quit, we talked about life. Life is but a breath can disappear like a shadow but character will always remain in the air we breath.We also talked about the healing within prayer which he agreed deeply as well because he told me, "If we didn't have science to keep the human body thinking they were going to live forever but maybe die tomorrow or any second, wouldn't they change within themselves and how they treat others ?" I miss Zachary dearly, for if he was alive he would be the first to understand the feelings within myself, because he was such a great listener, and always had the right words to say without judgement and criticism. His parents are amazing and loving people who created with their care an individual who touched many with just his actions and smile. His parents don't deserve charges,for Zakk is in another place, better than the world we live in ,where he doesn't feel sadness because within our twisted world many lack morals.

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Tim     1 year, 3 months ago

Kelzy, I understand the point you are trying to make. But I MORE fear it going the other way, which is the trend. We have gotten religion out of government now we have government in religion. The boy was seventeen and able to chose and he chose to follow his faith. A lot of difference between that and human sacrifice. We have the government saying it's okay to kill our babies in the womb but not okay to let them die for their faith? We have the government telling us our morals cause undue hardship on homosexuals and now they are prosecuting these parents for passing their beliefs on to their children.

There is a very real threat here but it's not what you think...

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tenshi5     1 year, 2 months ago

I think that we are missing a golden teaching moment here. It's interesting that you are telling us that the government is telling us the YOUR morals are causing undue hardship on homosexuals. I hear them saying that homosexuals don't have the same rights as other Americans and shouldn't. I hear the faith based candidates telling us that church and state SHOULDN'T be separate. I hear them telling me that the America I live in should be based on laws out the Bible. I don't hear freedom of religion in our discourse at all. I hear freedom to be a Christian otherwise you're un-American and immoral. If you support these parent's right to believe in faith healing and not FORCE their child, (because that is what it would have been as he did NOT apparently want to go), to get medical care, then you must ALSO respect the rights of EVERY American to worship as they please and not expect those who differ in the belief system to adhere to your moral code. You can't have it both ways, (either side). If you want to be free to believe what you believe and to practice the tenets of that faith, you MUST allow others to do so and cannot judge or condemn them for it. Problem is, as human beings we ALL judge. We all like to feel superior to our fellow man and religion allows us to feel that way. Christians KNOW all Muslims are going to hell and Buddhists think Christians are mistaken and will come back again to learn the lessons not understood in this life. Truth is, NO ONE knows the mind of the creator, know one knows any truth except his/her own truth. A relationship with a creator/God/higher power is by necessity a private one and is not to be foisted upon another. We all believe what we believe is right and according to our Constitution we have that right. It is a very sad day for the family in this article and arguing about it will not bring this young man back. I know how it feels when my son gets hurt. I cannot imagine the grief of losing him. Maybe we should allow them some dignity and not stand here and decide for them what decision they should have made. Thank whoever YOU believe in that you didn't have to make the choice!

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Meowzzz     1 year, 3 months ago

This is just such a sad situation. I believe these parents cared for Zakk, and were doing what they believed in. I don't believe they intended harm to him. I don't agree with what they did by not getting him medical attention, but I also don't think they did it to intentionally harm him. Their actions cost him his life. I feel bad for them, as they were taught this belief through their religion. It's just such a sad, sticky situation. It's hard to punish someone for doing what they believed was the right thing to do.

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luciagreenhouse     1 year, 3 months ago

This is so sad. Thankfully, in the state of Washington, parents can be charged in the death of children due to medical neglect for religious reasons. There are still many states with laws on the books protecting parents' first amendment rights over their children's rights to receive medical care. For more information on deaths of children like Zachary, please go to www.childrenshealthcare.org. and check out the "Livin' On a Prayer" episode of Family Guy. All about this denial of medicine to children by Christian Scientists.

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Tim     1 year, 3 months ago

So you don't believe a seventeen year old should be able to decide for themselves when to seek medical attention and when to live out their faith?

As sad as this is losing the first amendment to the constitution would be a greater loss. A lot of young men (many only seventeen I'm sure) died to give us those rights.

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lorimakesquilts     1 year, 3 months ago

No, I don't, he was under his parents' care. Children trust and believe in their parents. They may not have pressured him to share their beliefs as someone else here said, but I'm sure they took him to church with them. Of course, he shared their faith, he trusted them. Did they make the distinction between belief and facts? Did they expose him to other beliefs? I doubt it. Citing his age and his faith is a disingenuous argument. The decision making skills of a 17 year old in terrible pain are not superior to those of the adults whose care he is under. He was their responsibility and they failed him miserably.

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1anonymous1     1 year, 2 months ago

He went to public school! Of course he was "exposed" to other beliefs. As I wrote before, I had plenty of talks with him about why he and his family chose to live the way they do. He was aware that medicine can help people. He made the decision ON HIS OWN to deny medicine. He felt he didn't need it. That was his choice.

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Tim     1 year, 3 months ago

This gets even more insane. You want us to take our theology and ethics from Family Guy?

A parent can sign a waiver to allow their seventeen year old to fight a war but they cannot side with their child in his faith decisions? Insanity!

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1faceinthecrowd     1 year, 3 months ago

I think this is wrong on so many accounts, Sweezys live with Zakks death everyday, I also know for a fact they replay those final days over and over again. To see how they were, and how they are now, would show how this has effected them. Its real easy to call shots, and make statements NOT knowing the family or any of those involved. NO ONE will win, except the lawyers, it also makes one wonder if this is politics as usual, being that its a election year? I feel terrible for the whole Sweezy family, and for those of you who have voiced your opinions here, against the family I pity you also, like I said above, real easy to cast judgement when you really dont know much other than what you have heard or read.

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Michael     1 year, 3 months ago

I just joined a religion, and in one of my "holy scriptures" it says "every third child shall walk in darkness." Therefore, I intend to gouge out the eyeballs and eardrums of my third-born child. I expect that not only will my actions be protected as "religious freedom," but my great "faith" will be exalted as a high virtue. Right? .

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. .

A person's "religious freedom" ends when another person's well-being is harmed by the consequences of specific "beliefs." Nobody is defending the great "faith" of the 9/11 hijackers who were acting in the name of their lunatic "beliefs," so why are we still doing it here??? It does not matter in the slightest that Zachery himself denied treatment. This was obviously the result of 17 years of brainwashing by the OBVIOUSLY FALSE religious claim that some sky fairy would come down and heal him. . Religion is poison and that poison killed Zachery Swezey. Maybe we'll wake up and stop protecting such garbage.

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Michael     1 year, 3 months ago

To which I add:

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Tim     1 year, 3 months ago

So the choice to kill your baby in the womb can be made by a fourteen year old but a seventeen year old, who can go to war, is not allowed to take his chances with the faith he lives for?

I know FIRST HAND that God heals. I had a back problem healed while I stood in pain, stooped over. I still believe in doctors and that God gave us brains. But the greater loss than one life is the loss of religious freedom. If things went to the extreme you are taking this to we might have to amend the constitution. But for now, these parents do not deserve to be accused of murder for loving their God and their son.

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Michael     1 year, 3 months ago

Way to mindlessly sit on your refrain of "religious freedom" while ignoring my example of the vacuity of that notion. .

How do you know it was the Christian god who healed you and not Zeus, Thor, Odin, Krishna, Vishnu, Xenu, The Easter Bunny, or Tinkerbell? Show us your evidence.

.

Your reference to abortion is completely irrelevant. If people of "faith" wouldn't get in the way of sex education, there would be fewer young people seeking abortions. Abortion is a problem we can lay at the feet of "faith." . The problem is, "faith" and truth are diametrically opposed. Truth is based on evidence. "Faith" is believing things in the absence of evidence and sometimes despite contradictory evidence. Faith = NO truth. Zachery was killed by "faith." If there were no religion, Zachery would still be alive. Instead, Zachery does not exist because of a god that also does not exist.

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Michael     1 year, 3 months ago

"But for now, these parents do not deserve to be accused of murder for loving their God and their son."

.

As bad as saying, "The 9/11 hijackers don't deserve to be condemned for loving their God." Remember, that was an act of "faith" too. Blind "faith" in, and servile obedience to a "god" whose approval was found by reading "holy scriptures." . I realize there are good people of "faith" around. I assume, Tim, that you have not harmed the well-being of another person. But lots of people are good to each other WITHOUT taking RIDICULOUS truth claims about gods, "sons" of gods, or anything else on "faith."

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Tim     1 year, 3 months ago

"How do you know it was the Christian god who healed you and not Zeus, Thor, Odin, Krishna, Vishnu, Xenu, The Easter Bunny, or Tinkerbell? Show us your evidence."

Is there one of these you believe in Michael? I only believe in ONE God and I only have evidence for ONE God. I was in a Church that serves ONLY Jesus Christ and my pastor was praying to Jesus Christ when God told him I was being healed. At that instant the pain left and it has been gone for years. Problem being you only hate ONE God, the God of the Bible. I don't think you have much intelligence if you think the world would be a better place without faith.

You do not rationally discuss this you only comment to ridicule faith. Maybe if I let you blow your smoke you will go away.

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Michael     1 year, 3 months ago

No I'm an atheist about all of those gods just like you, Tim. I only go one god further. How ridiculous that you say I "hate" the Christian god when I don't think he exists. Your anecdote is about as convincing as me saying that elves must have fixed my clogged shower drain that became unclogged on its own somehow.

Answer the question, Tim. Tell me about "religious freedom" and the "belief system" I presented you with above. You're the one failing to rationally discuss. My example is asking you to tell me where we should draw the line when faith does harm.

You are right, I don't think too highly of "faith." It is certainly not a virtue any more than having hands is a virtue. Sure you can do good things with your hands, but you can do truly evil things with them too. Here are some of the evils of "faith": Human sacrifice, Jesus introducing the concept of eternal torture in "Hell", Mohammed the child rapist, Crusades, Inquisitions, Witch trials, 100 years' war, Martin Luther (on whose anti-Semitic philosophy the Nazis were grounded), 9/11, Gaza, creationist pseudoscience, and this murderous "faith healing" garbage.

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Christina_4     11 months, 2 weeks ago

          TIM!!!!!!!!!!!

"I don't think you have much intelligence if you thinik the world would be a better place without faith."

"You do not rationally discuss this you only comment to ridicule faith. Maybe if I let you blow your smoke you will go away."

HOW DOES WHAT YOU SAID DEMONSTRATE GOD?? IS THIS HOW YOUR GOD WOULD HAVE YOU TALK TO MICHAEL??? YOU HAVE JUST PROVED TO MICHAEL WHY HE SHOULD NOT BELIEVE IN GOD BECAUSE YOU SPEAK OF GOD AND FAITH IN ONE HAND AND THEN SLANDER AND PUT HIM DOWN IN THE OTHER!!! I AM CHRISTIAN AND WHAT MICHAEL IS SAYING OR POINTS HE IS MAKING IS PERFECTLY SENSIBLE AND THERE ARE ANSWERS I CHALLENGE YOU TO COME TO WENATCHEE VALLEY BAPTIST CHURCH AND ASK THEM,SO YOU CAN GET ANSWERS FROM A MINISTER HIS NAME IS DAVE AND HE WOULD LOVE TO PLAY A GAME CALLED "STUMP THE PREACHER" WITH YOU :) HE WILL ANSWER ANY QUESTION AND DEBATE WITH YOU WITHOUT JUDGEMENT. BACK TO TIMM......THE BIBLE YOU ARE REFERRING TO HAS THE BOOK OF JAMES IN IT? I WOULD SUGGEST YOU READING THE BOOK OF JAMES TONIGHT, SO YOU MIGHT BE REMINDED THAT YOU MUST BE QUICK TO LISTEN AND SLOW TO SPEAK?

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Tim     1 year, 3 months ago

Michael. I've said for a while that one of the best evidences for God is that it matters. You prove my point. If I said I believed in your "Drain Elves" you'd laugh it off. I defend faith in God and you get angry. You are as fanatical against Him as I am for Him. There are opposing spirits doing battle Michael, but God wins, I guarantee it.

You gave me the same guff over telling you how God cured me of a thirty year cigarette habit. In that miracle I can only say I was a chemically dependent bum when that happened. I know people who haven't smoked in ten years (my wife for one) and still crave. I truly have not had a craving from that day.

As for the miracle of healing, I didn't even pray for it. As it turned out I was about to face a very difficult time with skin cancer and thyroid surgery, but I didn't know it at the time. I had gone to church alone because my family was busy. I stood for the closing prayer and I couldn't straighten up, which was nothing unusual. I held the back of the chair in front of me and as the Pastor was about to start his prayer he did an unusual thing. In seven years it was the only time I ever heard him do this. He just blurted out "The Lord is healing someones back." He paused after saying it and went on with the prayer. It was at that moment I realized I was standing straight, pain-free.. I didn't tell anyone for days, not even my wife. We were gone for a few days staying in a cheap motel and I'd get up every morning and stand up and the pain was gone. It was a true miracle. It was weeks before I told my pastor. But when all those other medical problems hit I was confident because I knew my Creator could do whatever he wanted.

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Tim     1 year, 3 months ago

I don't know where to draw that line Michael, or how to draw it and keep our religious freedom. I only know a lot of men have died for our religious freedom and I think we should honor that.

As for the rest of your post. Michael, you are like so many others, blaming God for the foolishness and hatefulness of man. Sinse the 1940's so much has been found in the way of biblical manuscript and other evidence in other writings we are growing so much in our understanding of the Holy Bible. I have many reasons to believe and I measure everything by scripture. I think you and I would agree on that laundry list of complaints you have about faith; those are bad things. Difference is, I say they are bad because of the bible. You say the bible is bad because of those things.

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kyook     1 year, 3 months ago

Does God really exist? Yes or No. Take your pick and move on. Nobody is ever going to convince anybody with the opposite opinion.

1

Tim     1 year, 3 months ago

Here is a question to ponder:

Is there a spiritual realm; something beyond the visible and tangible?

Anyone with any awareness would say yes.

So if yes, then answer this question:

Why NOT God?

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kyook     1 year, 3 months ago

Define awareness.

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Tim     1 year, 3 months ago

"Define awareness"

I think the dictionary definition would do fine but if you're to lazy to look it up I'd say it is a consciousness of things around you.

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kyook     1 year, 3 months ago

Why the personal attack, Tim? Feeling a tad defensive?

I know what the dictionary says, I guess I was looking for your definition. My apologies for not wording my request for clarification properly. Maybe I should have asked; Awareness of what? Can you be more specific than just "consciousness of things around you"? Like maybe something within the context of your point to ponder?

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Christina_4     11 months, 2 weeks ago

"I think the dictionary definition would do fine but if you're to lazy to look it up I'd say it is a consciousness of things around you." This is NOT the way.....

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Tim     1 year, 3 months ago

Nope, sorry, I can't be more specific. There is a whole world of evidence for the spiritual realm. So my questions remains:

"Why NOT God?"

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kyook     1 year, 3 months ago

I am not surprised, to say the least, that your conclusion that "There is a whole world of evidence for the spiritual realm" is based on a faulty premise of "Anyone with any awareness would say yes."

I would also contend that you started your point to ponder with a well established set of preconceived notions. I wonder if your conclusion would hold water with somebody with less prejudices.

Before one can progress on to the second question, you might want to plug the glaring hole in the awareness question.

I am conscious of the fact that Albertson's has a bag of carrots on sale for 89 cents, but how does that confirm or deny the existence of a spritual realm?

Your point to ponder is great for a juvenile sunday school lesson but lacks credulity among a thinking audience.

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luciagreenhouse     1 year, 3 months ago

For seven months, my mother, Joanne Ewing, wife of a Christian Science Journal-listed Practitioner and Teacher (i.e. authorized by the Mother Church to train others in the "science of Christian healing") languished at Tenacre Foundation before being rushed to a hospital in a premorbid state, the victim of severe malnutrition, gaping untreated bedsores, a massive tumor in her abdomen, rampant systemic infection,etc etc. Nobody at Tenacre or anyone among the Christian Science community--not the two Journal-listed practitioner/teachers working on my mother's case, not the "nurses", nor the administrators--nobody-- suggested other options "open to Christian Scientists." Btw, readers may be interested to know that fifteen Christian Science care facilities across the country get Medicare reimbursements, even though no medical care is provided, nor is there government oversight, nor are any of their "health care providers" licensed, or trained, even in basic first aid. Anyone who believes Christian Scientists should be allowed to opt out of a medical insurance mandate, should keep this in mind: both of my parents, who practiced radical reliance on prayer, as well as countless people who have contacted me with their own families’ harrowing Christian Science experiences, have ultimately been raced to the hospital for emergency treatment and critical care without medical insurance. Guess who pays for these complicated, and often very costly cases?

1

1anonymous1     1 year, 2 months ago

This is not about whether God does or does not exist people. And this really isn't about who has to pay for medical bills when someone decides they want to go to the hospital. It's about a family suffering and being punished because their rights as citizens of the United States of America are being crushed. If Zakk wanted to go to the hospital, they would have taken him. Before you all start passing judgement, go look them in the face and tell them that they are horrible people for doing what they believed in. I promise you, they will not walk up to you and tell you that you are a bad person for seeking medical attention. They will not ridicule you for calling them names and judging them. They will simply accept that you have your own opinions and walk away, knowing in their hearts, that they loved Zakk with every ounce of their being and they miss him every single day. They will also walk away knowing that you are all to shallow minded to even take the time to wonder how they feel about losing a child or how they feel about someone discriminating against them, just because they don't understand. There is no difference between this prejudice and that of the Civil Rights Movement, Gay Marriage, Freedom of Religion, or any other "popular" debate. This is arguing for argument's sake. None of you have taken the time to listen or even ask why they do the things they do. You have not given YOURSELF the opportunity to gain a little understanding. Are you truly going to walk around proud of the fact that your ignorance makes you feel better by belittling someone else, simply because you THINK you're right. This is probably the most uneducated, biased and pathetic excuse for human interaction that I have seen in my entire life. If you don't get what I'm saying, let me make it simple; PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ANUS! Take the time to listen before you speak and try to understand that there are people out there that are different than you and there is nothing you can do about it, so you might as well learn to accept it.

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grandma123     1 year ago

Ok tim u say that a 17 yr old can go into the military ur wrong on that u have to be 18 to join it always been that way and it will stay that way cause they are still minors at the age of 17 and i do believe that the parents should be charged with his death cause when i sit back and read all of the comments it makes me sick cause the only way u know what they are feeling is if you have something really bad happened in ur life or family like i did my dad has no voice box cause of the military and if we didn't get him to the drs he would have died so the parents reliable for his death and should be charged with it big time parents killing their childern needs to stop now.

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bc2011     11 months, 3 weeks ago

So if this was your child would you like it if people were bashing you about your faith? I went to school with Zakk and there is absolutely no reason people should be saying this kind of stuff. If you were Zakk's parents, would you like reading this? Would you enjoy people bashing your parenting? NO! absolutely not! So have some respect because they are going through a very hard time. I for one respect the Swezey's 100%. They are wonderful people, wonderful community members and have strong faith. He was not forced on anything. This was not Greg or JaLea's decision. God works in wonderful ways and they have a right just like everyone else to believe what they want. SHOW SOME RESPECT! Thank you Keep your opinions to yourself if they are negative. Because like i said, how would you feel??

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