State wins No Child Left Behind waiver
Schools superintendent says it helps Washington move beyond test scores
Friday, July 6, 2012
SEATTLE — The U.S. Department of Education announced today that Washington state and Wisconsin have won their bids to be excused from some requirements of the federal “No Child Left Behind” law, including the need for every child to pass statewide reading and math tests by 2014.
The decision brings to 26 the number of states granted waivers as Congress remains at a stalemate regarding an overhaul to former President George W. Bush’s signature accomplishment. With more than half of the states now free from many of the law’s requirements, there are questions about the future of No Child Left Behind.
The 10-year-old federal No Child Left Behind law requires all students to achieve proficient math and reading scores by 2014, a goal that many educators say is impossible.
Superintendent of Public Instruction Randy Dorn said the waiver will give Washington a chance to grow beyond test scores as the only way to judge the success of students and their schools.
Dorn said the waiver will lift the requirement that all students pass both the state reading and math tests by 2014. It will also give Washington school districts more flexibility about how they spend some federal dollars.
In return, Washington will need to show improvement in test scores for subgroups of students who have historically had lower scores than average, such as those who qualify for free- or reduced-price meals.
The Education Department began granting the waivers in February in exchange for promises from states to improve how they prepare and evaluate students. The executive action by Obama is part of an ongoing effort to act on his own when Congress is rebuffing him.
The administration says the waivers are a temporary measure while Education Secretary Arne Duncan continues to work with Congress to rewrite the law, which is formally known as the Elementary and Secondary Education Act.
“A strong, bipartisan reauthorization of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act remains the best path forward in education reform, but as 26 states have now demonstrated, our kids can’t wait any longer for Congress to act,” Duncan said in a statement released today.
Members of both parties agree the No Child Left Behind law is broken but have been unable to agree on how to fix it. While it has been praised for focusing on the performance of minorities, low-income students, English language learners and special education students, it has also led to a number of schools being labeled as “failing.”
Critics also say the law has had the unintended effect of encouraging instructors to teach to the test and has led schools to narrow their curricula.
In late May, Wisconsin officials said they were modifying some details of their waiver application and expected approval soon.
The federal Education Department earlier wrote to officials in that state, saying Wisconsin had a number of commendable proposals, but they were too short on detail.
Other waiver applications are still pending in 10 states and the District of Columbia. Six waivers were approved last month in Arkansas, Iowa, Missouri, South Dakota, Utah and Virginia.
In order to get a waiver, each state had to promise to show in other ways that its students and schools are improving, and they were required to more closely link teacher evaluations to student test scores, among other requirements.
Washington’s waiver application emphasized its embrace of new national education standards, the state’s new teacher and principal evaluations, and its efforts to take a broader look at student achievement beyond reading and math by also testing for writing and science.
The waiver agreement requires that by 2018, Washington cut in half achievement gaps between various ethnic and economic groups, when compared with 100 percent passage rates. For example, if one group had 74 percent passing reading in 2011, that group would need to have 87 percent passing by 2018.
The agreement adds another requirement for Title I schools, which are high-poverty public schools that get extra money from the federal government to help students who are behind academically or at risk of falling behind.
It requires the state education office to annually identify priority schools, which are the 5 percent lowest-achieving of Title I schools; focus schools, which are the lowest 10 percent of Title I schools; and reward schools, the highest performing Title I schools or those making the most progress in a given year.
» 39 comments on this story
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mizmaus 10 months, 3 weeks ago
No Child was a terrible program. Ask a teacher.
TrixR4Kidz 10 months, 3 weeks ago
You need to back off and talk about something that you really understand - which is clearly not what is happening in the classroom and school.
Lisa 10 months, 2 weeks ago
Well stated!
mizmaus 10 months, 3 weeks ago
No Child was not about teaching.
kassilou1 10 months, 2 weeks ago
That's what i have heard from every teacher I know; No Child Left Behind has been a nightmare for them and takes away from actual teaching. Just a lot more paperwork and bureacratic bs. You sure assume a lot, Flamebike! I wouldn't be a teacher these days for a 100,000 a year. Everything falls on their shoulders; even before the parents in a lot of cases. They aren't just teachers, they are social workers, nurses, shrinks, coaches, babysitters, you name it. I really admire the dedicated people who are still willing to walk onto some pretty dangerous campuses and try to make a difference in some kid's life.
Mom 10 months, 3 weeks ago
Flame bike, Talk about cynical! I guess you're not a teacher if you really don't believe that teachers want to teach children! Trust me, I've done other jobs and teaching is by far the hardest. The pay is good, but for that, teachers have to get a Masters or another year+ of classes within 5 years of graduating then another quarter of graduate level classes every five years for as long as they want to teach. I have at least 8 years of college at this point and yet some people treat me like I haven't a clue about my job and, worse than that, pass on this attitude to their children who are my students! Thank goodness, most parents realize we do care about their children and work very hard to teach all children regardless of whether we are treated with respect. And this has nothing to do with unions.
Faedrus 10 months, 3 weeks ago
"That's like asking the inmates for thier opinion on the prison system....the teachers are there to TEACH--if they can't for one reason or another, replace them with someone that can."
Flame, are you volunteerin'? :)
Don 10 months, 2 weeks ago
There is always a justification to not hold the education system to a performance standard. In the end, not only are we failing the kids, but ultimately we are failing society as a whole.
Faedrus 10 months, 2 weeks ago
Don, WA State tests kids multiple times each year, shares the testing results with teachers, provides goals and expectations to teachers and their supervisors given test results, etc.
Don 10 months, 2 weeks ago
True, but to what end? High school graduates cannot compose a grammatically correct sentence nor solve a basic story problem. There really need to be published accountability standards.
Suz 10 months, 2 weeks ago
Surely you realize you are exaggerating Don.
A. Wenatchee and Eastmont students have won National Merit Scholarships for excellence in Engish and Math. Our local students are awarded hundreds of thousands of dollars in scholarships each year including full rides to ivy league universities like Harvard and state schools like WSU, Western, Eastern and Central. They have won writing and speaking contests at state and national levels and our academic teams have a shelf of trophies. Our students have excelled at MIT, Stanford, Harvey Mudd, Princeton, Yale, Berkley, U of W., Harvard etc. I've seen my students deliver commencement speeches at Central and Whitman. I'm currently reading a critically acclaimed novel by a former student who has a phd in American Studies from Princeton. Last night I visited with another former student who won an essay contest sponsered by the National Holocaust Museum and was awarded an all expense paid trip to DC. She then went on to college and is now teaching the children of expats in China. Next week I'm going to have the pleasure of seeing two former students who live happy and successful lives. He is an admired businessman in Texas and his wife the mother of their four children is a talented photographer. I could go on all night talking about these talented, successful, happy, high achieving adults who graduated from local schools, but you know this. Why not celebrate the successes of our graduates and volunteer to help those who need extra help. Business men and women, parents and grandparents, working people and retired people all volunteer to help our kids meet standard. If you want to join them at WHS this happens after school in the library. A call to any school district will open doors for volunteers and doors for students.
B. Every school district sees its state test scores published every year and the scores can also be obtained on line. The standards have been and are published and are on line at the SPI website.
Don 10 months, 2 weeks ago
Nowhere in my post did I say 'all' graduates cannot perform academically. Are you going to try and tell me everyone who receives a diploma actually possesses a standard level of proficiency? Pointing out examples of what a very small percentage of students have been able to accomplish doesn't help make your case. The problem with our schools is not the inability to provide an education to those who would succeed in any school. The problem is the inability to perform for the vast majority of students, and how the system itself manages to weasel out of every means ever placed upon it to hold it accountable.
Suz 10 months, 2 weeks ago
Don " The problem is the inability to perform for the vast majority of students"
Your statement is simply not true if it applies to high schools graduates which US News and World Reports said in a March 21, 2012 article was at 75%. High school graduation (which occurs 2 years after the last mandated test at the 10th grade level) is the standard accepted for basic skills like writing a sentence or solving math problems and more.
Obviously the vast majority 75% nationwide can write sentences and do story problems. If you meant drop outs, well that leaves 25% who are not performing at basic levels and 25% isn't even a majority let alone a vast one.
The Washington Post said in May, "The national graduation rate increased to 75.5 percent in 2009, up from 72 percent in 2001. .... Just one state, Wisconsin, achieved a 90 percent high school graduation rate. But Vermont was close behind, with 89.6 percent of its high school students graduating on time."
Locally, our kids are far above national averages. The graduation rate at WHS as reported by SPI is 86% and "Extended Graduation Rate (takes more than 4 years to achieve a diploma) is 91.7" and our dropout rate is 2.5%.
At Eastmont the extended graduation rate is 83.3%. with annual dropout rate of 2.3%. Dropout rates only measure those who leave a school and do not reenter school somewhere else and the state average in 2011 was 17%.
Please folks, just go to www.k12.wa.us/default.aspx which is the Superintendent of Public Instruction website. There you can compare see ALL the data on any school anywhere in Washington State.
from that site: "OLYMPIA — June 14, 2011 — In the fourth year of high school graduation requirements, more than 90 percent of Washington 12th grade students in the class of 2011 have passed the state reading and writing exams prior to reaching their respective graduation ceremonies.
State Superintendent Randy Dorn released preliminary statewide results from the High School Proficiency Exam in reading, writing and science at a press conference today. This spring marked the first time students took end-of-course exams in math (algebra 1 or geometry). Those results will be returned in late August.
“Our state has had great success in raising our reading and writing scores during the past 10 years,” (Superintendent) Dorn said. “But now, we must focus our efforts on math and science so our students can compete for the high-paying jobs in our state that industry leaders must look elsewhere to fill.” " Dorn said the graduation rate has climbed 6 percent in the past five years (from 70.4 percent in 2006 to 76.5 percent in 2010). Also, the state’s extended graduation rate (for students who take more than four years to earn a diploma) climbed above 80 percent for the first time to 82.6 percent in 2010."
Don 10 months, 2 weeks ago
Your very long response is summed up quite nicely by your assertion early on that a high school diploma equals a predictable basic skill level. If you honestly believe that, which I can't imagine you really do, then nothing I could possibly do or say would make one difference in this conversation. Just to clarify though, I do not believe our current system's high school diploma represents anything more than proof of attendance. I am not alone in feeling that way. The reason there is so much support for mandating some kind of standardized test prior to graduation is simply because it is painfully obvious a high school diploma does not equate to possessing basic academic skills. If it did, nobody would feel the need for unbiased standards that are not so easily circumvented by teachers and school administrators. People feel these methods are necessary checks and balances to a system that is failing. I share that sentiment and sincerely believe this 'win' for Washington's schools is a loss for us all.
TrixR4Kidz 10 months, 1 week ago
Don, Your assertion....never mind...I'm forgetting the rule, Don't feed the trolls.
Suz 10 months, 2 weeks ago
Don: "Just to clarify though, I do not believe our current system's high school diploma represents anything more than proof of attendance. I am not alone in feeling that way."
You may feel that way, you may not be alone in feeling that way, but you are mistaken. Argumentum ad populum (argument or appeal to the public). This is the fallacy of trying to prove something by showing that the public agrees with you.
In addition, what you and I "feel" does not trump the reality of the situation. Your original argument "High school graduates cannot compose a grammatically correct sentence nor solve a basic story problem" is fallacious because it is a sweeping generalization (dicta simpliciter).
I cannot say that the vast majority of doctors are quacks and expect people to take me seriously any more than you can say the fast majority of graduates lack even basic academic skills. Sweeping reform may be needed indeed, but sweeping generalizations don't contribute to that reform and may, indeed hinder it by suggesting that reform is driven by poor reasoning.
The article above makes very clear that Washington State is not easing its standards, but rather increasing them. Just a standardized test at graduation does not fairly measure every student's ability. Albert Einstein, for example, couldn't even read tests accurately (he was dyslexic) and failed many including the entrance exam to the Polytechnic Institute in Zurich, Switzerland. Winston Churchill failed the entrance exam to his military college twice. Standardized tests are just one part of assessment.
Don 10 months, 2 weeks ago
I suppose that makes me as guilty as someone who uses examples of particularly advanced students to make their case that the school system isn't broken.
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Not that it matters one way or the other, but it isn't like I live in some kind of vacuum. I interact with lots of children at various stages of their education. I see, in horrific clarity, just what passes for a proper education. You can pretend these kids don't exist if that makes you feel better, but you know as well as anyone exactly how easy the high school diplomas are handed out. They don't mean anything. Kids are rubber-stamped into the next grade level each year and eventually out the door with a diploma alleging they have the basic skills to be productive members of society.
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The most frightening thing in all your banter isn't how wrong you are. Quite simply, it is how right you seem to honestly think you are. Unfortunately that belief is shared throughout your peer group. That is the biggest problem. No real change can happen until those heads come out of the sand. Running around patting each other on the back for a job well done each year isn't going to bring about any positive change. No amount of pompous Latin is going to help either.
Faedrus 10 months, 2 weeks ago
"No amount of pompous Latin is going to help either."
Ad hominem argument -
"Latin for 'to the man' or 'to the person', short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it.
"Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy, more precisely an informal fallacy and an irrelevance."
Don, kids are better educated now than ever. More are graduating, and/or going on to college. More have access to educational sites like Wikpedia, university seminars on You tube, etc., and more have traveled outside the state and country and learned from afar.
Suz is correct, and trying to distract from her argument by calling a reference to an old Latin debating trick "pompous" doesn't make your argument any more salient.
Per the Wiki posting above, its an irrelevance.
Don 10 months, 2 weeks ago
My posts are no less relevant than anything of the drivel you are posting. None of your claims change the fact that our students are falling globally every year at a time when they are required to compete more and more on a global scale. You both claim our students are better than ever. Even if that was true, which evidence suggests a steady decline for the past 50 years, it still isn't good enough. Our students rank 14th in Reading, 17th in Science, and a pathetic 25th in Mathematics. Combine those statistics with employers who cry out every year about the need for, and lack of, job candidates for positions needing those skills and you have a recipe that clearly and irrefutably screams that our education system is failing to provide what our society needs. So, again, you can sit there and regurgitate a little more Latin, then define it as if I needed you to do so if you feel that somehow makes you smarter, but nothing you are spewing is accurate.
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In closing, here is a Latin phrase a sophist can appreciate. You ought to love it: Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
Suz 10 months, 2 weeks ago
I never claimed our students were better than ever in any of my posts. I am not saying anything about that one way or the other now.
I said that high school graduates could write grammatical sentences and do story problems. Those are things you insist the majority of them cannot do. I disagreed.
Profound Don, Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
Faedrus 10 months, 2 weeks ago
"My posts are no less relevant than anything of the drivel you are posting." - Ad hominem/personal attack.
"...define it as if I needed you to do so if you feel that somehow makes you smarter..." - Personal attack.
"...nothing you are spewing is accurate." - Personal attack.
"Quid quid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur, i.e., Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound." - Irrelevant.
Don, let's go back to your original allegation:
"The problem is the inability to perform for the vast majority of students."
Okay, now let's test your hypotheses.
First, the heads of some of the largest and most profitable companies in the world today (and recent past) are products of the US education system:
Steve Jobs, Tim Cook (Jobs replacement at Apple), Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer (Gates' replacement), Larry Ellison (Oracle), Mark Zuckerberg (Facebook), Jeffrey Immelt (GE), Jeffrey Bezos (Amazon), Michael Duke (WalMart), etc., etc., etc.
Second, the US, with 6% of the world's population, is responsible for about 22% of the world's economic output.
Third, the US' education system is considered by The Economist to be one measurable reason for the US' economic success, and subsequent wealth -
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/06/daily-chart-1
Fourth, the US has the greatest number of top 500 companies in the world, at 132, managed primarily by Americans. China is second with 73, and Japan fourth with 68.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/07/daily-chart-8
Fifth, the US is number one in food security around the world on a whole host of measures, per a study by DuPont:
http://foodsecurityindex.eiu.com/Country/Details#United%20States
And, that's just a start.
And yet, you're claiming that the US is producing a bunch of dummies.
So, is the US education system perfect? No.
Is it improving? Yes.
Is it competing in the international marketplace? Yes.
Is it producing some nice results per the stats shown above? Yes.
I would therefore politely suggest that the evidence does not support your assertion.
Suz 10 months, 2 weeks ago
You grossly exaggerated to begin with and now you are changing the original premise.
Your original statement was," High school graduates cannot compose a grammatically correct sentence nor solve a basic story problem." Now, because you could not prevail with such an illogical assertion supported by nothing more than your personal experience interacting "with lots of children at various stages of their education," you have changed that premise. Now you want to debate where the US ranks in comparison to some unnamed other countries in some unnamed study from some unnamed source.
Even if you can trouble yourself to provide actual data from some reliable sources, I have exhausted my ability to move to yet another educational topic with someone who obviously believes schools have failed everyone for the last fifty years and will leave US employers bereft of competent employees and thus destroy our entire society.
My heavens man, is there nothing in the current system to prevent this march to doom. What should we do? The sky is falling. No graduate of our schools today can write a grammatical sentence or do a story problem. No one will be able to get a job even if the economy turns around because they won't be able to fill out the applications. Colleges will have to institute massive remedial programs for all their students. The only good news will be that there will be an army of illiterate laborers desperate to work for minimum wages and easily manipulated by captains of industry who were educated 51 years ago.
You've convinced me Don. Our schools are havens of ignorance where innocent children learn nothing and the few unbiased standards that exist are "easily circumvented by teachers and school administrators."
Faedrus 10 months, 2 weeks ago
Gosh, Flame.
Communication between folks with diffing viewpoints is good, right? :)
And, if Don could provide a little more data to back up his point, or address some of the points Suz and I have raised above, it would help.
Communication is good. :)
Don 10 months, 2 weeks ago
You guys aren't even arguing about what I said. You add words to my sentences that change the context, then argue about the changed context.
.
I have made the claim that a high school diploma is a glorified certificate of attendance, and that having one does not in any way represent a level of competence. You both argue against that point by making statements about a very small minority of students who accomplish great things and somehow feel that not only disproves what I said, but that our education system is a resounding success.
.
None of what you have said changes the reality of our situation, nor does it change the steady decline of our global competitive advantage.
.
It is amusing to read most of your responses though. My favorites are the lists of successful entrepreneurs and using them as examples of how our system cannot possibly be the failure it so obviously is. It made me think of the great pyramids in Egypt. They were built by a few very smart people and a whole lot of mindless labor drones. Pyramid building was a very successful industry, but hopefully nobody would be so naive as to claim the slaves were well educated simply because they built something we still marvel over in our much more modern society.
Suz 10 months, 2 weeks ago
Don, just how many students in a class of 521 seniors at WHS (in 2012) do you believe cannot write a grammatical sentence? I'm serious. Please name a number. (I couldn't find the exact number that graduated)
Make this more understandable to me. I just cannot grasp what you mean by a vast majority. 300? 400? 500?
Faedrus 10 months, 2 weeks ago
"I have made the claim that a high school diploma is a glorified certificate of attendance, and that having one does not in any way represent a level of competence."
You've made the statement, but have provided no evidence.
"...nor does it change the steady decline of our global competitive advantage."
Evidence?
"..the failure [the US educational system] so obviously is."
Evidence?
"...nobody would be so naive as to claim the slaves were well educated simply because they built something we still marvel over in our much more modern society."
You appear to be claiming that those who work at Apple, GE, Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, Walmart, and Oracle are poorly educated below the CEO.
Evidence?
Don 10 months, 2 weeks ago
You don't really want to play the tech company card, do you? I work with lots of tech companies on a daily basis in my job. I can assure you, the vast majority of the higher-end technical jobs are not filled by people our K-12 system had any part in educating. Any escalation resource I ever work with is rarely American. Nearly all high level support staff and product developers are from some other country. Every year tech companies, including all the ones you listed (except Walmart), scramble to process as many H1B visas as they possibly can. They need the technically-skilled employees and they cannot find them here.
Faedrus 10 months, 2 weeks ago
"High school graduates cannot compose a grammatically correct sentence nor solve a basic story problem."
Evidence?
Don 10 months, 2 weeks ago
I can understand how someone not in the teaching profession could be as naive as you, but you really have no excuse. Open your eyes, stop drinking your union Kool-Aid, and look at what is around you.
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The most damning evidence of how badly our high school graduates are educated regarding composition comes from our largest public universities. Both UW and WSU had to start separate tests to validate students could write properly. This is a graduation requirement at both institutions. I spoke with the Dean of the Department of English when I was a student at WSU, back in 1993, about why they had recently instituted such a requirement. I know this will shock you, but his response was rather blunt. He said employers were complaining that college graduates were severely lacking in writing skills. Obviously UW found something similar, as have other institutions of higher learning. That foundation skill is lacking in college freshmen, and unless it is something you are majoring in you simply don't get that skill set built in college since you are supposed to already have it by that time. This test was put in place simply to catch the vast numbers failed by their K-12 education.
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I don't need to provide exact numbers or estimates. Industry has already done it for me, and the system is failing. All you have to do is look and listen.
Norm 10 months, 2 weeks ago
"Evidence?"
Go to any Tea Party or read half of the posts on this site.
Don 10 months, 1 week ago
I had to upvote that comment.
Faedrus 10 months, 2 weeks ago
Don, these are stories. Anyone can tell stories to support a point of view.
The data, however, tells a different story.
Suz 10 months, 2 weeks ago
2.You said, "I can understand how someone not in the teaching profession could be as naive as you, but you really have no excuse." Faedrus may not be a teacher, but I am a teacher with over 30 years experience. Please Don, what is your ed background. You alluded to "being around" students, but are you a teacher, parapro, bus driver, principal..? What is your experience?
Don 10 months, 1 week ago
You will be waiting a long time. I don't make up statistics, but even if I did it would serve no purpose in this discussion. No matter what number I guessed, you don't have any way of refuting it other than your own personal opinion, which is no more valid than mine. Ironically, my point in this entire discussion underscores exactly how this could be resolved. If there really was a graduation standard based on a minimim skill level, then we both could confidently claim it was 0% Unfortunately any attempts to reach that point are met with violent objection from the very people responsible for developing those skills in our students.
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Not that my educational background is terribly relevant, but I am a product of Eastmont School District, from kindergarten all through high school. After a military stint I went through the EE program at WSU. I do not work in any capacity for a school. My direct exposure to students is strictly a function of community involvement, and I see a broad spectrum ranging from very talented kids from home, private, and public school environments, to kids who have fallen through every crack they could find, but somehow are still at the same grade level as other kids their age and are so far behind academically they will probably never catch up. The latter disturb me to no end as it is so obvious in most of them how much potential they have, but it is being wasted. They will exit our school system with a rubber-stamp diploma that means nothing, and life prospects that are grim at best. Then I see an article like this one cheering about how schools got a waiver so they don't have to be held to a standard any longer. Back to status quo (oops, that is Latin).
Faedrus 10 months, 1 week ago
In other words, you don't have any stats, or evidence to support your opinion. It's just your opinion.
In contrast, I gave you plenty of stats and evidence to the contrary.
For example, the US economy is the largest in the world, at about 22% of total output, with about 6% of total population.
So, it's fighting way, way, way above it's weight.
The majority those managing that economy went through the US school system.
So, something very right is happening.
And, your opinion doesn't track reality.
Don 10 months, 1 week ago
I don't have the specific stats you are requesting because I do not have access to that information. I have provided all kinds of evidence, you just choose to dismiss it. By contrast, your 'evidence' is based on leveraging a global position our country used to dominate and drawing a correlation from that to make some blind rationalization that it has something to do with a successful education system.
.
In more simple terms, your example here is almost as ridiculous as your tech company claims earlier. The US economy is still more than its population's share of the global economy, as you stated, but it has been steadily eroding for the past few decades. There are a number of reasons for that, most of which have nothing to do with the quality of our schools. If it did have a role in making your case, it would be a very bad choice since it is on a steady downward trend due to increased production in developing industrial countries.
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This will be my last post on this thread. It has definitely run way past its course. You may each have your last words.
Faedrus 10 months, 1 week ago
"I don't have the specific stats you are requesting because I do not have access to that information."
Don, sure you do! Just Google it! What do the stats say? And, why do they say it? :)
"I have provided all kinds of evidence, you just choose to dismiss it."
You know Don, I think we're looking for something a little more substantial than: "Sometimes I talk to students, and some of them seem kind 'a dumb".
"There are a number of reasons for that, most of which have nothing to do with the quality of our schools."
If not the schools, then why is the US so productive relative to other countries around the world?
"You may each have your last words."
Gosh, thanks Don! However, why do I feel like we'll be hearing from you again? :)
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