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Obama an easy winner in student mock election

Saturday, November 3, 2012

WENATCHEE — Never mind what their parents might think, Wenatchee High School students would re-elect President Barack Obama in a heartbeat. They also strongly support gay marriage and more cautiously approve of marijuana legalization.

Panthers at the polls

Wenatchee High School mock election results (1,374 students voted. All numbers expressed as a percentage of votes)

President/Vice President

Barack Obama/Joe Biden (D) 61.5

Mitt Romney/Paul Ryan (R) 30.4

Other 8

U.S. Senator

Maria Cantwell (D) 62.4

Michael Baumgartner (R) 37.7

U.S. Representative

Dave Reichert (R) 56.1

Karen Porterfield (D) 43.9

Governor

Rob McKenna (R) 54.2

Jay Inslee (D) 45.6

State Rep. District 12, Pos. 1

Cary Condotta (R) 55.7

Stan Morse (R) 44.3

State Rep. District 12, Pos. 2

Mike Armstrong (R) 61.6

Brad Hawkins (R) 38.4

Chelan County Assessor

Deanna Walter (R) 55.4

DeWayne Crater (R) 44.6

Chelan County Commissioner, Pos. 1

Ron Walter (R) 59.8

Gary Schoessler (R) 40.2

Chelan County Commissionner, Pos. 2

Doug England (R) 55.7

Mary Signorelli (D) 44.3

Chelan Superior Court, Pos. 9

Alicia Nakata 36

Travis Brandt 64

Initiative Measure 1185 (2/3 vote to raise taxes)

Yes 50.1

No 49.3

Initiative Measure 1240 (public charter schools)

Yes 58.8

No 41.2

Initiative Measure 502 (marijuana)

Yes 54.5

No 45.5

Referendum Measure 74 (same-sex marriage)

Yes 69.5

No 30.5

Obama wins in statewide mock election

Pres. Barack Obama was a clear winner in a statewide mock election held last week. Students from schools all over the state voted online, using an abbreviated and age-appropriate ballot prepared by the Washington Secretary of State Department. The election was not related to the independent mock election held at Wenatchee High School.

Results of the 2012 Washington State Mock Election were released Friday. More than 38,000 Washington students, grades K through 12, voted in the election exercise in the past week.

Pres. Obama won 69 percent of the vote, compared 31 percent by Mitt Romney. In the governor’s race, 57 percent of students picked Democrate Jay Inslee over 43 percent for Republican Rob McKenna.

Complete results of the statewide mock election can be found online at www.sos.wa.gov/el...>

Some 1,374 Wenatchee High School students out of 2,150 at the school voted in a mock general election Tuesday, Oct. 30, on ballots made for the vote by the Chelan County Auditor’s Office. Wenatchee students strongly supported Pres. Barack Obama, re-electing him with 61 percent of their votes, compared to 30 percent for Mitt Romney. Wenatchee students similarly favored Obama 64 to 30 percent over John McCain in 2008.

Chelan County registered voters didn’t agree with students four years ago.

They favored McCain in the real election by 12 percentage points. It’s likely that the county’s large population of Republican voters will support Romney this year.

While students supported Obama, they didn’t choose Jay Inslee, the Democratic candidate for governor. “I’m not confident I know what that’s about,” said Scott Benner, who teaches world problems, civics and advanced placement classes to seniors.

They also voted conservatively on local races, but liberally on state issues. Nearly 70 percent of students supported same sex marriage. They approved marijuana legalization by a much smaller margin, 55 percent.

Benner said his classes watched all three presidential debates and many students voiced a general dislike of what they said was Romney’s mostly negative style. A lot of students said they felt okay with what Obama has achieved the past four years, considering the economic problems he inherited from the previous administration.

“They were realistic about what he could do,” he said. Benner also believes that the growth of social networking may be causing students to rely more on their peers and many more sources for information, rather than just their parents. Romney may also remind kids too much of President George W. Bush and eight years of war, he said.

In reviewing results of the last six presidential elections going back to 1988, Benner said students only voted against the incumbent twice. They voted for Repubicans four times and Democrats twice. Only once — in 1996 when they supported Bob Dole over Bill Clinton — were their results different from the national election results.

Concerning ballot issues, students have almost always voted yes in past elections, showing a liberal bent to change, Benner said.

Holly Thorpe, 17, a WHS senior and co-founder of the school’s Young Politicians Club, said, “I was a little surprised” by the election results “because I see Wenatchee as a very conservative area.

Thorpe said the results show that times have changed. Issues like gay marriage and marijuana legalization that used to be so hotly debated have ceased to be a question for students.

“Those are things that were unheard of when our parents were in school. There’s been a pardigm shift,” she said. “Students have access to so much more information now.” About Obama’s popularity, Thorpe said while some people think the president has done a poor job in his first term, students still feel he’s the candidate who will best represent young people.

“We’re going to vote for the guy who’s going to fight for our needs,” she said.

Fredi Simpson, Republican party national committee woman and a longtime Wenatchee Republican party leader, said it doesn’t surprise her that high school students would vote more liberal than their parents.

“Young people believe in utopia. They believe everybody should be able to do everything at any cost. They want the best for everyone,” she said. That liberal perspective begins to change when they leave home and have to pay their own rent, buy food and insurance and pay taxes, she said.

Jeanine Butler, Chelan County Democrats chairwoman and former Wenatchee School District assistant superintendent of learning and instruction, said young people she talks with tell her they like what Republicans say about getting government out of their lives, but are very upset when they try to tell them what to do with their bodies.

“That’s an especially big issue with young women,” she said. Students she’s talked to tell her they think the economy is moving in the right direction and believe things would be moving faster if Republican lawmakers were more willing to compromise.

“The young people I talk to know there has to be give and take,” Butler said.

Rick Steigmeyer: 664-7151

steigmeyer@wenatcheeworld.com

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mthompson223     6 months, 3 weeks ago

I wouldn't expect anything less from our youth. I used to be a democrat too when I was that age. I was young, dumb and had nothing to lose. Then I got older, wiser and had something to lose. Naturally, I stopped being a liberal.

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Suz     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Most youth is innocent and hopeful. The old too often become bitter and vindictive.

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JimboBear     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Youth and innocence don't go far when it comes time to pay the bills Suz.

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lonedog3     6 months, 3 weeks ago

but if your a liberel supporter they get someone else to pay the bill. everything is expected to be handed to you.

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Larry71     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Im a democrat I still have to pay my bills.

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localmormon     6 months, 3 weeks ago

I'm not too sure this many of the students are Democrat. Like the sentiments mentioned near the end of the article, I think the youth despise the Republican intrusion into their lives, even if they are fiscally conservative.

And, being adept at navigating the internet (where Fox News can't push impose its trash as forcefully as it can on the American couch) probably gives the youth an advantage at noticing the contradictions Romney slews. They may not agree with Obama, but they recognize Romney is an embarrassment who has no definitive stance on nearly issue.

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kyook     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Methinks you might be projecting, localmormon.

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rwaller     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Gives one hope for the future of the community.

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JimboBear     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Yes, when we are young, all the hope and change and the handouts are very attractive, and tie right in with our concept that the old foggies don't know much about anything anyway. As youth fades, we begin to realize who is paying for all those giveaways, and our vision becomes a bit more critical. I think I myself was a reasonably liberal Democrat until I was about 30 or so.

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rwaller     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Makes it much easier to turn your back or look the other way while claiming a moral high ground.

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JimboBear     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Uhhhh . . . I'm not at all sure what you are driving at, Rick. Did I say something about claiming any moral standing? My point was that youth is an overflowing fount of optimism while the reality of life becomes much more apparent as we age and see more of the real world. That has nothing to do with morality or turning your back on anything.

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dougmorgan     6 months, 3 weeks ago

More proof that our schools promote the liberal agenda. We will be a liberal county in the next generation and the last area of the state that has conservative values will be gone. Our taxes at work supporting the liberal teachers. Ask a conservative teacher how they are treated by liberal teachers. We are not teaching our kids to think for themselves. They are being indoctrinated. Can't wait for the liberal attacks on my comments.

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milo     6 months, 3 weeks ago

If you were right and the students opinions were being shaped by the faculty the charter schools initiative would have lost. It got a 59% yes vote.

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Suz     6 months, 3 weeks ago

So very true Milo!

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rwaller     6 months, 3 weeks ago

There is no need to attack that which is indefensible.

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localmormon     6 months, 3 weeks ago

I agree. I cannot believe the liberals want to teach actual science in the classroom and ignore creationism! GET YOUR LIBERAL HANDS OFF MY CONSTITUTION (which heavily promotes separation of church and state)! /sarcasm

Would you care to define what this 'liberal agenda' is the teachers are teaching?

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Dudleydoright     6 months, 3 weeks ago

More evidence our schools are failing us : )

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milo     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Is this your liberal conspiracy theory of the week?

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Suz     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Two words for you Flame. School Board!

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rwaller     6 months, 3 weeks ago

It has clearly worked with you, brainwashing that is.

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localmormon     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Let me make a fourth liberal comment. Actually, I'm just going to edit your comment.

More pointedly--the failing begins with the GOP's manure machine, Fox News, the biggest news source of America, who controls the weak minded who listen to it for several hours a day, which in turn heavily influences the vote. It's called brainwashing. If you hear Romney's lies (Chrysler ads, Obama's doubling of the deficit, $4,000 tax hike on middle-class families, etc.) often and long enough, you may start to believe it.

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kyook     6 months, 3 weeks ago

You spew the liberal hate/fear mongering against Fox News quite well and almost verbatim, localmormon.

Just for fun, why don't you name for us another non-liberally biased cable news outlet. I can name about 30 democrat lapdog outlets right off the top of my head.

Let's put that in terms of a ratio, 30:1.

Remind me again where the heaviest dose of brainwashing comes from?

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localmormon     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Wall Street Journal, Rush Limbaugh, New York Post, Wall Street Journal, Newsbusters, and Drudge Report are the ones I can produce from memory. I love how you assume the number of liberal outlets you can remember somehow surpasses the conservative's influence. You happen to be correct, that there is an American perception that liberal media is a larger influence, but mere quantity does not define influence as you tried to insinuate.

When a news organization consistently lies, slants, and straight-out attacks science to change the public opinion and further the fear that keeps their viewers watching their commercial breaks, I would think the heaviest brainwashing in the United States would come from conservative buncombe.

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kyook     6 months, 3 weeks ago

"When a news organization consistently lies, slants, and straight-out attacks science...."

If you think that the mainstream media is a haven for truth, unbiased & hard-hitting investigative reporting and anything more than preaching to the choir democrat mantra then you are delusional.

Oh, wait....you're a liberal...

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Suz     6 months, 3 weeks ago

The mock ballots were identical to the actual ballots.

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lonedog3     6 months, 3 weeks ago

i wonder if the mock ballots that look exactly like the real ones will make it into the system as real ballots.

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Suz     6 months, 2 weeks ago

Surely you jest. They were removed from the machine at the high school and destroyed.

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Suz     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Surprised that no one commented on Referendum Measure 74 (same-sex marriage) which received 69.5% yes and only 30.5% no. If anyone doubts that the bias of the past is fading, here is evidence that, indeed, "the times they are a changing."

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kyook     6 months, 3 weeks ago

"If anyone doubts that the bias of the past is fading, here is evidence that, indeed, "the times they are a changing."

Oh, I am totally convinced!

Given that only 10% of high school seniors know how many justices there are on the Supreme Court I am very assured that the younger generation is in tune with the important issues of the day.

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/dumb-as-a-rock-you-will-be-absolutely-amazed-at-the-things-that-u-s-high-school-students-do-not-know

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Suz     6 months, 3 weeks ago

At Wenatchee High the seniors do know things like that. I use to tell my graduating seniors that they knew more about the local, state, and federal government than 90% of the county residents. And they did! Can't compare a local school that requires three full semesters of civics and world problems with the average high school. Plus the reason some may know less is because their parents would rather talk about American Idol and Dancing with the Stars than politics, economics, religion, education or family (the five social institutions). PLUS it has never been any different. Your generation knew very little at that age too (and some still stubbornly maintain that ignorance).

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lonedog3     6 months, 3 weeks ago

and even less can actually name all 50 states

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dryside     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Listen and regurgitate. They will be the ones paying for it.

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rwaller     6 months, 3 weeks ago

What happened to you? Assuming you came through the public schools perhaps you can share how it is you escaped the damage to become the beacon of free thought that you have become.

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Stever     6 months, 3 weeks ago

“……you escaped the damage to become the beacon of free thought that you have become.” Huh. Didja miss that session entitled English 101? You must have been attending church.

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Hemmi     6 months, 3 weeks ago

I am gratified that WHS students are able to think and believe freely. Freedom of thought, rather than Dogma was what I was able to take away from my WHS educational experience.

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Suz     6 months, 3 weeks ago

We should all be applauding the interest our young people have taken in learning to exercise civil rights. Seeing how the voting process works will make it easier for them to fulfill the responsibility of voting when they are adults. Bravo to Scott Benner, the Auditor's Office, the secretary of the Social Studies Department Mrs. Szot, and all the volunteers who made this happen last week. Democracy in action. Well Done!!!

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imoagn     6 months, 3 weeks ago

“Young people believe in utopia. They believe everybody should be able to do everything at any cost. They want the best for everyone,” she said. That liberal perspective begins to change when they leave home and have to pay their own rent, buy food and insurance and pay taxes, she said." ......So true. That's their collective consciousness.

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antzrus     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Both my sons graduated from WHS. One is a corporate attorney. The other is a Masters level biologist. Both are in their 30's, both very optimistic, hopeful and hard working young men looking forward to the future aware there are real challenges (but which generation has not faced such); both liberals.

Why is it that liberals see a future, and conservatives see only shades of doom and gloom?

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kyook     6 months, 3 weeks ago

"Why is it that liberals see a future, and conservatives see only shades of doom and gloom?"

Why do so many people generalize and speak in absolutes?

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lonedog3     6 months, 3 weeks ago

because the conservitives see what the liberals are really doing to this once great nation?

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antzrus     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Heheheee, OK!

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antzrus     6 months, 3 weeks ago

The Liberal way I look at it, we get numerous folks gunned down everyday here in the good old USA. Why oh why don't you conservative firearms folks cry fowl and raise a ruckus re the same and have the President do something about it?

But a rare and unfortunate episode of some of our diplomats being gunned down in continually war torn Libya with firearms & RPG's on everyone's shoulder big enough to carry and our President (who has just those poor folks in Libya on his plate?) needs to be canned?

If so, then what about the endless firearm bloodshed here in the US? What should be done? Who should be canned..?

PS And speaking of our dead fellow Americans; who is it that got us into Iraq, and still in Afghanistan after we beat the tar out of the Taliban there. Plenty of our young people have been/are getting wasted there. And who wants to get us involved unilaterally in even more bloodshed?

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lonedog3     6 months, 2 weeks ago

more people die every day from cars and drunk drivers. When are you liberals going to put an end to that bloodshed on our streets?

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JimboBear     6 months, 3 weeks ago

I simply think that it is a crying shame that so many in this country want to make this election an issue of partisan politics. Folks, this country is in DESPERATE need of leadership and understanding in the area of business and finance to get this economy back on an even keel and stop the current deficit spending hemorrhage. I propose that we should put all the liberal/conservative bickering aside long enough to realize that Romney has a world of experience and knowledge in the field of business while Obama has virtually none. We, the average citizens need to stop thinking and pretending we understand everything and anything beyond our own careers and get someone behind the wheel that knows how to drive!

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kyook     6 months, 2 weeks ago

Jimbo, liberal vs. conservative isn't partisan, per se, it's philosophical. Democrat vs. Republican is partisan and as we know there are liberal Republicans and there are conservative Democrats so to vote a straight party line is foolish, ignorant and lazy.

But you are correct in that something very different needs to be done, and soon, in order to stop the hemorrhaging. I wouldn't discourage anybody from voting for someone with whom they agree philosophically and not just because there is an (R) or a (D) behind their name.

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JimboBear     6 months, 2 weeks ago

"Jimbo, liberal vs. conservative isn't partisan, per se, it's philosophical."

Well yes, I'm quite aware of that although those terms seem to have become quite interchangeable with Republican & Democrat of late. To be honest, I think I merely left out the (R) & (D) labels assuming that people would understand what I was driving at. My point remains that of the two candidates, only Romney possesses the skills necessary to turn our economy around and I believe the economy to be the most critical issue facing this nation today.

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Dudleydoright     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Tuesday can't come soon enough.

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antzrus     6 months, 3 weeks ago

Flamebike:

The Liberal way I look at it, we get numerous folks gunned down everyday here in the good old USA. Why oh why don't you conservative firearms folks cry fowl and raise a ruckus re the same and have the President do something about it?

But a rare and unfortunate episode of some of our diplomats being gunned down in continually war torn Libya with firearms & RPG's on everyone's shoulder big enough to carry and our President (who has just those poor folks in Libya on his plate?) needs to be canned?

If so, then what about the endless firearm bloodshed here in the US? What should be done? Who should be canned..?

PS And speaking of our dead fellow Americans; who is it that got us into Iraq, and still in Afghanistan after we beat the tar out of the Taliban there. Plenty of our young people have been/are getting wasted there. And who wants to get us involved unilaterally in even more bloodshed?

1

kyook     6 months, 3 weeks ago

"Why oh why don't you conservative firearms folks cry fowl (cluck, cluck) and raise a ruckus re the same and have the President do something about it?"

It's not the President's job to rewrite the second amendment.

"But a rare and unfortunate episode of some of our diplomats being gunned down in continually war torn Libya with firearms & RPG's on everyone's shoulder big enough to carry and our President (who has just those poor folks in Libya on his plate?) needs to be canned?"

Libya is not "continually war torn". Only in the last few months has there been what amounts to a civil war there. It's not our responsibility to intervene in their civil war but it is the responsibilty of the POTUS (the buck stops there) to provide adequate security to our embassy. Additional security was sought, refused & when the dung hit the fan, a cover up ensued. Somebody's head needs to roll. Fine with me if it's Hillary's and not Obama's.

"If so, then what about the endless firearm bloodshed here in the US?"

What about it? Apples vs. oranges.

What should be done? Enforce existing gun laws.

Who should be canned..? Those who don't enforce said existing gun laws.

"PS And speaking of our dead fellow Americans; who is it that got us into Iraq, and still in Afghanistan after we beat the tar out of the Taliban there."

Iraq, George H.W. Bush in 1991, in response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Afghanistan, George W. Bush post 9/11/2001 with the stated goal of dismantling the al-Qaeda terrorist organization and ending its use of Afghanistan as a base.

We didn't "beat the tar out of the Taliban there". They (the Taliban) are still active there and just waiting for us to leave so they can renew their efforts to take that country forward into the 17the century.

"And who wants to get us involved unilaterally in even more bloodshed?"

Nobody.

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Telman     6 months, 3 weeks ago

That is why we don't let 16 year olds vote. I bet that 1/2 of the vote cast were from illegals,

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sourtellinme     6 months, 3 weeks ago

I don't get it. Republicans don't want a Government interfering in their business, but they want business interfering with our Government.

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sourtellinme     6 months, 3 weeks ago

And hope I never do!

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DWALLG9290     6 months, 2 weeks ago

I don't think,parents, school or Bush, or any News station has anything to do with how the kids voted. When I was a teen-ager the Nightly News was of no interest to me. Politic's was of no interest to me, however" American Band Stand" was a must see. The programs that the kids are watching today are completely different then when I was a kid. I think the programs that make things look acceptable that would have never been when I was growing-up has more influence then how they vote then any political party, teacher,or parent. However, as they grow older and become more interested in the World as a whole, they start to pay attention to the real issues rather then the lastest song or fashion statement.

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lonedog3     6 months, 2 weeks ago

When will they pay attention to the real reason the economy collapsed? and what party was really to blame?

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Suz     6 months, 2 weeks ago

Most of them seem aware that the Bush Administration left Obama with a collapsed economy and which party was to blame. (At the federal level they voted Democratic)

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JimboBear     6 months, 2 weeks ago

"Most of them seem aware that the Bush Administration left Obama with a collapsed economy and which party was to blame."

Well Suz, do you suppose that might be due to the fact that during their entire high school career they have been taught by Liberal Democrat, Union teachers that Bush was bad but the Democrats in general and Obama in particular are here to save the country? I doubt that they know much at all about the Bush years other than what they have been told by their mostly Democrat teachers at school, and I'll bet they know even less about how Clinton sold us all down the road with his NAFTA and other such policies.

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DWALLG9290     6 months, 2 weeks ago

I can only hope that they will elect people who are looking for solutions. The blame game has only divided our Country. We are all in this together. One Nation Under God.

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antzrus     6 months, 2 weeks ago

Get out there and vote. Either "the people" liked your choice or not; no excuses/whining.

This has been going on for more than two years (ugh) and a $1,000,000,000 (double ugh) price tag. Accept our president and work to make this country the best on G-D's green Earth.

Forget the politics, he will be our President and this is our country-The UNITED States of America!

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iansfolks     6 months, 2 weeks ago

I applaud those kids for getting involved politically, and don't give me that bull about them being brainwashed by some liberal union teachers. What kind of person is so angry with the world that they have to blame everything on and brand people as liberals or socialists! Giive me a break! When I was in the 7th grade, there was this election between Goldwater and LBJ. Our teacher let us hold a mock campaign and allowed us to each decorate one side of the room wih our candidates posters, bumper stickers etc. She even allowed the "liberal" kids to cut up a Goldwater sticker and rearrange the letters to spell "old wet rag". My point is that this was in 1964, and the school that I went to was a conservative Christian "Catholic" school taught by nuns. These types of civics lessons have been taught in schools for a long time. I applaud these kids, because they are the voters of tomorrow, and they need to make their voices heard in order to help shape their future!

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JimboBear     6 months, 2 weeks ago

Yes, I remember that election well, Bruce. It was the first presidential election for which I was over 21 and able to vote. Believe it or not, I voted for LBJ that year, and he rewarded me by increasing our involvement in Vietnam many times over. My young and idealistic views led me to believe that the ultra conservative Goldwater was a fool, but about 50,000 young lives later I was beginning to doubt the wisdom of my convictions. As I said earlier, as we age, we eventually learn that there is a great price to be paid when we are so liberal as to believe that everything can be accomplished as long as we throw enough money at it. It's not anger at the world, it's having enough sense to look and see where your taxes actually go and to what end they are used to accomplish what goals. As 7th graders, I don't believe we are capable of that insight.

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iansfolks     6 months, 2 weeks ago

It will also be interesting to see how the students vote compares to the election tonight!

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antzrus     6 months, 2 weeks ago

Jimbo-wasn't it Goldwater who wanted to Nuke Vietnam? Now decades later in hindsight you actually think LBJ wrong and Goldwater should have done his thing..?

What happened to your thinking between being 21 and your current unilaterally shoot'em dead perceptions now? I take it you never personally participated in a war or were a REMF...

See this classic LBJ campaign ad from those days: http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/johnson/media/daisyspot/

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JimboBear     6 months, 2 weeks ago

Hmmmmmm? Jim, I don't recall Goldwater wanting to Nuke Vietnam, and to be honest, I don't think I'll bother to look it up further than this quote from the History Channel's site.

"Goldwater said that the United States should do whatever it took to support U.S. troops in the war and that if the administration was not prepared to "take the war to North Vietnam," it should withdraw. Although Goldwater discussed the possibility of using low-yield nuclear weapons to defoliate infiltration routes in Vietnam, he never actually advocated the use of nuclear weapons against the North Vietnamese."

Whatever the case, it's definitely history now, and I wasn't so much attempting to show anything about LBJ or Goldwater as I was trying to show that our perceptions of good and evil politicians changes with time and age. I sincerely don't know what in the world you are talking about when you mention my ". . . current unilaterally shoot'em dead perceptions", so I won't bother to respond to that.

As for my having "participated in a war" or being a "REMF", you are correct in that I never set foot on dry land on Vietnamese soil. I was Navy and served aboard a carrier on Yankee Station, and then was transferred to Subic Bay, PI where I participated in training of South Vietnamese and Cambodian naval forces and made two TAD trips to the Mekong Delta during the early development of the river gunboats that were the forerunners of the Swift Boats used by our "Brown Water Navy". So yes, I believe that puts me at least one step above a REMF, but I wouldn't expect you to agree.

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kyook     6 months, 2 weeks ago

REMF?

Please explain.

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kyook     6 months, 2 weeks ago

Forum Guideline (aka Froum Standards)in part:

You agree not to post messages or other content or send emails with any illegal or harmful content, including but not limited to content that:

•is obscene, vulgar, or profane (including obfuscation of words or acronyms)

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Stever     6 months, 2 weeks ago

“….including obfuscation of... acronyms” Mr. Robbins did not obfuscate the acronym “REMF”, Kyook, as you stodgily allege in your reply to him. He quoted it exactly as written in other posts. Had he obfuscated the acronym it would have read as something like “FERM”. Additionally, you would be well served to refrain from asking a question if you can't handle the answer. :)

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kyook     6 months, 2 weeks ago

Stever, first of all, if you'll re-read the thread you'll see that I did not ask a question of Mr. Robbins as evidenced by the lack of a squiggly thing called a question mark (ie: ?). Secondly, all I did after Robbins response was to pull a quote from the WW policy. The question was asked of antzrus, who was the first to use the term REMF. Thirdly, the direct quote from WW policy is, "•is obscene, vulgar, or profane (including obfuscation of words or acronyms)" not •is obscene, vulgar, or profane (including obfuscation of acronyms) as your not so clever use of editing would imply. Fourth, regardless of whether or not you were curious enough to look up the meaning of REMF for yourself when it was first used or lazy enough to wait until Robbins provided a link, the meaning is still obscene and really shouldn't be used here according to the forum guidelines. Lastly, I seldom ask questions that I don't already know the answers to so you might be well served to refrain from assuming that I can't handle the answer.

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JimboBear     6 months, 2 weeks ago

So did you flag the post Kyook? I felt that the acronym was so much a part of the Vietnam era that it fell into the same category as SNAFU and WWII, I would be quite surprised if the staff deleted a post for the use of that acronym. My point is, you asked the question, and Jeff directed you to a definition. Is that so wrong? Do you want me to delete my post, or ask the staff to delete it for me?

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kyook     6 months, 2 weeks ago

The Forum Standards are pretty clear, accordingly SNAFU (which could be interpreted two different ways) may or may not violate the Standards but WWII should never. Unless there is another definition that I am unaware of then REMF is always inappropriate.

The WW is a little loosey-goosey on enforcement, heck...I got deleted once for typing "S-word".

You can do whatever you like. If the WW staff knows the definition of REMF and they know their own rules I'm surprised all the posts are still here.

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JimboBear     6 months, 2 weeks ago

I won't argue the point Kyook, because I was aware of what you were driving at. I would say that any second definition to SNAFU came along well after WWII when it was originated, and most likely was coined by those wishing to use the acronym but knowing they had to clean it up to do so. Our world was much different then and many words and terms that are in common usage today were simply not acceptable then. By the end of the Vietnam War, our vernacular was much more accepting. As I said below, I wasn't sure just how to address your question within the guidelines, and didn't try because I was quite certain you knew the answer.

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JimboBear     6 months, 2 weeks ago

Thanks Jeff. I wasn't sure how to address the question within the Forum guidelines.

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antzrus     6 months, 2 weeks ago

"Goldwater discussed the possibility of using low yield nuclear weapons..." I think your statement might allude to what Goldwater was considering if he had been President.

Of course he didn't strongly suggest it-he was not the President. But with Curtis LeMay pulling mightily at the leash to actually Nuke Vietnam, it took a strong LBJ to keep him under control. Considering if Goldwater was President and was "considering" nukes himself, how might have LeMay manipulated Goldwater toward that end? You wonder...But it's past history-thank goodness.

Thanks for your service, one and a half steps above a REMF..! :-)) In my and other combat/war veterans perceptions, suffice it to say, please we don't need no (more) damn wars.

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JimboBear     6 months, 2 weeks ago

Curtis LeMay. Oh yes . . . the head "Hawk" in charge. Man, he wrote the book, and yet during the latter half of WWII in particular he did an outstanding job when he was called upon. I think that's the important thing. We do what we know how or can be trained to do and we do it to the very best of our ability. From CIC down to the lowliest Marine Corps grunt, if they are doing their best to accomplish a common goal, it's hard to call them a REMF or anything else that is degrading. We really are a band of brothers, and only those who have that fraternal connection have the right to exchange the jibes such as Jar Head, Swab Jockey, Ground Pounder and yes, even REMF is OK when it comes from a brother.

Thanks for your service as well Jim, and that thanks goes out to each and every one of us who has gone out there and done what was asked of them and done it so well. I admire you all.

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antzrus     6 months, 2 weeks ago

Amen, Bro.

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