Photo | The Wenatchee World

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

And the Wenatchee World takes another step to indoctinate our children and our socioty into the homosexual culture. "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality.....who, knowing the righteous judgements of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRACTICE THEM." . No doubt some will want to sensor this quote from scripture. This comes from the end of Romans chapter one. The chapter gets much more specific about homosexuality, but I'll let you read it for yourselves. My issue here is not with gays, but with the media for promoting it as just another life style.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"No doubt some will want to sensor this quote from scripture." . Uh, Tim? YOU just censored it. The full quote reads "28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them." Romans 1:28-32, New King James version. . There's a whole list of things in there that are condemned just as strongly as homosexuality is, but you chose to censor the others out of the passage in order to focus the condemnation on just one item on the Bible's list. . "And the Wenatchee World takes another step to indoctinate our children and our socioty into the homosexual culture...My issue here is not with gays, but with the media for promoting it as just another life style." . Its some people eating dinner. Describing a picture of people eating dinner as "indoctrination" and "media promotion of a lifestyle" is hysterical nonsense, plain and simple.

3 years, 3 months ago

Nothin' like seeing two chums getting chummy!!! with a couple of 'dirty' martinis...< LOL! Yep, it's the old Valentine bump and grind with a twist!...a twist of lemon that is. :-D

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

Norm: "Uh, Tim? YOU just censored it." No, Norm, I just shortened it because it is hard to type it out on my laptop. Thanks for completeling it! I'd put the whole chapter in if I thought people would read it. . "Describing a picture of people eating dinner as "indoctrination" and "media promotion of a lifestyle" is hysterical nonsense, plain and simple. " .The WW put homosexual domestic parteners on display for my children and you know nothing about the Christian faith or traditional sexual mores if you do not understand why I take offense to that.

Mom 3 years, 3 months ago

Tim, You can't have it both ways, You can't say that the Bible says one thing and when it is quoted in its complete text, try to say that Norm is censoring it. You did. It really bothers me that Christians, and I am one, choose to focus on "sins of the flesh" while they have no problem harshly condemning, acting in other than a Christian-like way, judging and spewing hatefulness towards others, which are clearly breaking the first two commandments of the Bible. It's one thing to say that you approve and agree with something that you consider to be sinful, and quite another to treat those people as you would not want to be treated. And don't try to say that you would want to be treated that way if you broke the commandments, because that is just a copout for your comment here. No one wants to be treated that way.
I guess I am hoping that you will rethink your position about judging others and remember that the Bible says, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Also, at this time, rather than spending time harshly rebuking the newspaper and people who are "gays", why not say some extra prayers for Mackenzie Cowell's family. That kind of puts things in perspective for me.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"No, Norm, I just shortened it because it is hard to type it out on my laptop" . 1. You censored the parts that showed equal condemnation of other common acts and attitudes, including, but not limited to, maliciousness, whisperers, backbiters, proud, boasters, and unforgiving. 2. Here's a good reference source that allows you to search by citation and/or for specific text across multiple translations (you can use it to copy and paste): http://www.biblegateway.com/ 3. Its a picture of two people eating dinner, nothing more. If you want to live somewhere where pictures showing homosexuals as normal human beings are prohibited, you are free to move to Iran or Saudi Arabia. 4. You're welcome for the handy Bible reference source.

girlfawkes 3 years, 3 months ago

"The WW put homosexual domestic parteners on display for my children" . Yeah? Did you send your kids the link? . I like steak!

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

Susan, I don't know where you're comming from. I never accused Norm of sensoring anything. Norm accused me of sensorship for leaving out part of the scripture and I thanked him for putting it in. The caption of the picture says the two men are domestic partners, we all know what that means so quit playing dumb and saying it's just two guys out for dinner. . Norm, I use Biblegateway alot, but thanks for recommenting it. I Just don't have it handy on my laptop so I typed it out and only used what I thought applied to what I was saying.
. Susan, I have not treated anyone badly here, only pointing out that the WW is making social statements with this picture. And I do not approve. . Norm, I want to live in THIS country the way it was not so long ago, where freedom meant the privilage and responsibility to do the right thing and media wan't in the business of changing the social and moral attitudes of the people. This country went from being the melting pot to the waste basket and the media had much to do with it.

pete154 3 years, 3 months ago

I think this picture is so sweet. Two people who are enjoying a valentine's dinner. Stand on the side of love, people. Christ dined with the prostitutes and lepars. He spent his time with the down-trodden. If you want your children to be Christ-like, you must be the example of love and acceptance of all mankind and womankind. Who cares if these are two men who are friends, or two people in a commited, and loving partnership. Love in any relationship is beautiful and kind.

Mom 3 years, 3 months ago

Tim, I never said that they weren't domestic partners and I know exactly what that means. I happen to know one of them and know how hard his life was prior to admitting to who he is. I'm not going to make a judgment on him or anyone else when we are explicitly directed not to judge others. As was pointed out to me at one time, no one would choose to be gay in this culture or any other where it causes nothing but pain and social isolation. It's not a choice and I'm not going to judge others, whether it's the newspaper for putting a picture in of a gay couple or the couple, themselves, because I haven't walked in their shoes.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

Susan, I need you to read all the posts and see what applies to whom when I post. I am usually answering several people at once. . I am called by my Creator to bring others the Gospel, that Jesus died because WE ALL sin, and we all need saving. If the loving accepting approach worked to bring people to faith some churches would be overflowing with drug dealers and prostitutes and gays. It doesn't change their hearts. . And this bologny about Jesus just loving ALL the sinners and never judging is heresey. Jesus loved and forgsave them and then said "STOP SINNING". Love and forgiveness is not a licence to keep right on sinning. . I promise you, if we met on a bus or a coffee shop and it was me and any one of you and a gay couple you would find me kind and loving. I do not nor have I ever gay bashed in the name of Christ. Prior to following Christ I bashed gays. Twice as a young man gay men tried to molest me. I was shy and baby faced and it scarred me for some time. I have forgiven those men but I find nothing redeeming in gay love. . I view homosexuality the same as I do drunkenness or drug abuse or cheating spouses. Some people are inclined that way, I'm an addictive person, recovering from alcohol and drugs. What I did was wrong. When I had enough and asked the Lord gave me a way out. The more socioty tries to legitimise homosex the more I will protest. I want the world to know it is still wrong and they do not have to accept it in the name of tolorance. Jesus said "be perfect", and you won't come close being proud of your gayness. It would be easier for me to laugh at gays, I don't like being disliked for my opinions but the truth is the truth. I have never in my life said "All gays go to hell", I do not make that judgement, but homosex is wrong and there's no getting around it, and it angers me when the media thinks it's their job to spur on social change.

I will not condone any immoral lifestyle by my silence.

Mom 3 years, 3 months ago

Tim, I guess I just don't see that photo as legitimizing anything. It was taken by a photographer; it wasn't part of an editorial. If it were, that would be different. I'm glad to know that you wouldn't persecute a gay person or be rude to him/her if you were to meet them. But the same way not all men are bad, not all gays are going to try to molest you. Sorry for your bad experiences. I used to think that it was a choice until I became enlightened about it by some gay people I know. And maybe you or I think the action is a sin, again, unless I have had to walk in their shoes and live a life feeling how they feel, I don't think it's up to me to judge them or to convict them for their actions. Again, it bothers me that many Christians are so quick to judge people regarding sins of the flesh, but not so quick to convict or judge others based on how they treat their fellow man. Maybe you aren't one of those Christians who do that. I would love to see you do a commentary about how people should be kind to others and treat other people how they would like to be treated. That's one thing that as a teacher I try to teach my students, that we are put on this earth to encourage and help people, not to hurt or judge them. Trust me, this is a lesson that most junior high kids need. I also raised my three kids with that in mind, that above all else I wanted them to grow up to be kind and caring toward other people. I've pretty well succeeded in that, most of the time, that is.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

Susan, your words touched me. I believe I have stated that I am not condemning anyone to hell. I believe you can be a saved Christian and struggle with sin. And being an addictive person I understand the innward struggle with truth and desire, many days I just want to get drunk. In fact I told my wife that was just the way I was made, until the Lord got a hold of me. . Unfortunately, the news paper doesn't afford to many opportunities to give dissertations on Love. Jesus says in Matthew 23:37 how He wants to gather them up but they are unwilling. Jesus has called the Church to be part of the gathering up of the people. But the people must know they need gathering. I do feel love and compassion for gays and all those who are lost, but telling them they are fine is not going to bring them to Jesus. . The world is being convinced that homosex is not a sin and so they must accept it and this is not the case. The world is going the wrong direction and Jesus called us to be light, to light the path to salvation, and for people in sin that is not a popular place to be, lighting up that which people want left in darkness. . I get angry because the world (schools, media, ect.) try to give my children and yours a different world view when I want them to have a Christian world view view. . I have to leave. But my point I guess is that kindness doesn't always come with acceptance of everything. The kindest people want us to be better. The parent who tells their kid they are the best at everything; the brightest and best looking and the best player on the team does their kid a disservice. I have known some beautiful people who do bad things, but I love them enough to tell them, "You can change! and God is there to help."

freethinker 3 years, 3 months ago

They look like decent people to me. I'm going to make sure my kids see this picture - if we haven't recycled the paper already. Happy Birthday to Oran - is the food good at the Windmill?

Suz 3 years, 3 months ago

I'm curious Tim, as a good Christian, do you volunteer in the community? Do you tithe? What is your faith story? Are you acting or just talking. Why not share the good news of how Christ is changing your life. It is a journey, right?

If you believe you are called, "I am called by my Creator to bring others the Gospel," what are you doing to do so. It seems to me that you spend a huge amount of time on these blogs and I don't see many converts so far. Mostly, you just argue with other Christians. So how do you walk in the faith?

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

We could get the thread closed for getting off topic, but things are slow so I'll share a bit. I believe I am called to be an encourager of the seeker. Those looking find encouragement in my words. Those in full revolt against God or those apostate, or even those completely confident in their faith don't seem no care much for me.

I used to volunteer for things around Entiat. I was on several boards and even did one term as a city councilman. I was voted out of office for either my conservative religious stance or my conservative fiscal stance or maybe a little of both. People quit asking me to be on boards and I think it's for the best. . I now serve the Lord by being as good a father as I can. I also write a Christian column for a small news paper. I used to have some things printed in the Chelan Mirror but my style grew more personal or something; anyway, they don't print me much any more. My life has shifted gears dramatically over the last eight years. I quit smoking and drinking at ages 43and 46, respectively, and at 51 now I love learning more and more about the Lord and the Word. . I am passionate but still rather shy about public apeaking though I love small groups or one on one. Last weekend I helped put on a Bible conference at our church. Great speakers and much info (it was a live simulcast). I sometimes help with our youth group but am not all that good with young men.
. As for what I do here, it is mostly for those who read, more than those who talk. I know most here are set in their ways but maybe someone will read something and be bennifitted by it. I am told by many they agree with "MOST" of what I say and I like to smile and say, "If we agreed on everything one of us wouldn't be necessary!"

I like doing this, it helps me learn how to communicate and vent my thoughts.

Hope that helps. If you have more questions take them to me personally, and I'll be glad to answer.

Bud 3 years, 3 months ago

I am amazed at how no one has remarked that this is a newspaper with the idea in mind to make money. It is a business. What better way to get people to examine a newspaper, look at the ads, see the events, etc., than to evoke an emotional debate, and then put it on the front page for further scrutiny and comment?

This is quite different than the gay wedding article a few years ago. Those articles are paid for, and the World was right to print it. The above article was a planned move on the part of the paper. It's their choice to do that. Or perhaps they would say that the happy couple requested that qualification.... it doesn't matter.
Exploitation is the issue here, of all parties! It seems totally correct in my mind to pray just as much for God's will for the editors of this "small town" paper as for the the two diners.

Also, concerning the above comment, " I used to think that it was a choice until I became enlightened about it by some gay people I know.",...... my prayers are with you also.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"Also, concerning the above comment, " I used to think that it was a choice until I became enlightened about it by some gay people I know.",...... my prayers are with you also." . I'm not completely certain about what you mean by that. Anyway, here's my take on the question of whether or not its a choice: I'm a heterosexual; I'm attracted to women. It's absolutely not a choice on my part - the feeling of attraction or arousal that hits me when I see a pretty woman is not something that I have any control over whatsoever. Its simply not possible for me to choose to have that feeling when I see a man - no matter how attractive he may be considered by people who are attracted to men. My understanding of homosexuals is that its the same process for them (except with the same, rather than the opposite sex) - a response/feeling that hits them without any element of choice.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

I think, if we were honest, most ot us would admit to once in our lives having a craving or lust for something perverse. Many men who would never think of homosex wind up in prison and resorting to it for gratification. If we surrender to a craving and find pleasure, what is there to make us stop except a moral code. Many men have had those cravings but because of their faith still married and found fulfillment in heterosexual relationships. Statistically, the majority of heterosexual men sleep with fewer than five partners and have committed relationships lasting more than twenty years at least once in their lives. Most have one divorce and then a lifelong partner. Homosexual men seldom have less than twenty partners and rarely stay in a committed monogomus relationship for more than five years. . These stats vary from source to source but still expose the fact that homosexuality is primarily about physical pleasure. Few Gay men want a monogomus relationship. . The point being what they desire is in no way simular to that of hetero people. What a man feels for a man is not the same as what a man feels for a woman. In this truth we find the discription in Romans 1 to be made true: "26 For this reason God gave them over to vile passions, for even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27- Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and recieving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." . In Romans 1, Paul nails what we find in the world. The men have a passion for one another but it is unnatural. You might chose to believe what they feel is "love', but no one can say realistically that their expression of those feelings in natural. .

pete154 3 years, 3 months ago

If the bible were translated correctly from it's original language, I believe it would say not "Be ye therefore perfect", but instead, " Be ye therefore whole." It is my opinion that if you are stiving to be whole, that peace and love will abound in all that you do. I was a member of a major religious organization that preached striving for perfection, and I NEVER felt that I measured up. But, now, having left that organization, (and I miss so many of my friends there) I feel that my journey to be whole has just begun, and I am 46.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

"Whole-ness", what is that? I say, for the Christian, Wholeness is a complete relationship with Jesus Christ and that requires at least a striving for perfection.
. Wholeness is a vauge concept outside of a fixed moral standard and absolute truth. So "wholeness" in Christ is still the striving for perfection. Problems of guilt and failure are best handled with humility and faith and trusting that the Lord knows your heart and your desire for perfection.

pete154 3 years, 3 months ago

Obviously, your mind is closed to any new ideas, or anyone's differing view or understanding of humanity. All of this over a picture in a newspaper that your kids would probably never see. I understand how you feel about topics that are sensitive, and could be offensive to some, but if you are constantly looking for the negative, you will find it in almost everything. I never said anything about guilt or failure. That church did fail us as a family. We almost lost a daughter because of a "leader's" careless and thoughtless behavior and judgements. I know MY heart, and that is what matters to me.

pete154 3 years, 3 months ago

I'm done.

TheWindmill 3 years, 3 months ago

I just want to compliment their fine taste in cuisine, and all the rest of you that patronized our little restaurant this Valentine's Day weekend! Thank you!

NavyWife 3 years, 3 months ago

*I would like to also say that The Windmill has the BEST cuisine in Wenatchee, WA. I live in the Portland Area and am more than satisfied with my meal when I make the 5.5hr drive to Wenatchee to visit The Windmill. It is always GREAT and exceeds my expectations. I would recommend it to anyone wanting an excellent meal and a wonderful atmosphere!!!*

3 years, 3 months ago

Appears lib's have infiltrated the local paper.....

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

Yep, I've eaten at the Windmill; amazing food, I recommend it to everyone. . Deb, you walked in and threw out an abstract idea, I first questioned it and then said what it means to me. I re-read my post and it sounds a bit sarcastic, I'm sorry. . I'm sorry you have had troubl;e with the church, alot of people have. Believe it or not I was rejected by some Christians back in the seventies for not being able to quit smoking. I was made to feel faithless and weak and guilty, that is why I used those terms. I left for twenty-five years. I'm back and I believe the bible to be perfect but am aware that I am not but I will not let people turn me away from worshipping my Lord again. I won't even join a church because of those past problems, but I love to go and sing and worship and learn from those God callled to teach.

I'm sorry if I offended you Deb, and I don't say that lightly here. I hope you find wholeness in Jesus Christ.

Sherz240 3 years, 3 months ago

Nothing worse than a reformed converted Bible quoting person. I don't believe that God intended for you to bring people to Christ by ringing their doorbells or standing on a street corner telling us we're sinners. Christians in the 70's casting stones for smoking? Must have been that Monitor furniture store church.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

"Nothing worse than a reformed converted Bible quoting person." . Wow, you're kidding. Nothing? There must be someone worse! Murders, insurance salesmen? . "I don't believe that God intended for you to bring people to Christ by ringing their doorbells or standing on a street corner telling us we're sinners." . So I'm not on a street corner or at your front door, so it must be ok. Heh? You don't strike me as someone who I trust to know what God intended. You have got to quote scripture for me to believe you on things of God!

. "

pete154 3 years, 3 months ago

Tim, I so appreciate your kind words. I understand your comments now because you stopped to explain. Let me say that I am so happy that you have found strength and salvation in the bible and in God and in Christ "who died that we might live again." I think your show of humility and kindness towards me proves that you are striving to live a loving and Christlike life. Kindness and acceptance of all does not have to mean you accept anyone's beliefs, just that you accept them as human beings with all their foibles and imperfections as we all strive to find purpose and goodness in this world.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

Thanks Deb, Blessings!

Supermn76r 3 years, 3 months ago

Tim, I've been sitting back and listening to your comments over several years now. I'm growing more and more disgusted. Many years ago i watched on as you drank excessively. I was so happy that you had finally kicked the habit, but i feel you're trading one addiction for another. You're using this craving, anger, hatered and funneling it into this negative view on homosexuality. You think all homosexuals are perverts or against gods will. I'm pretty sure that you're sisters in-law, your wife and even your father-in-law wouldn't agree. I should know as i'm your wifes step-brother. I've finally had enough of you saying that it's a sin or we can still be saved. I didn't choose this lifestyle. I was born this way. I've tried to put my best foot forward and to make a difference in the world. One where people don't have to hate and can accept each other. Have you ever even tried to get to know someone who's gay? You certainly don't know me very well. It's obsurd to say your children are being indoctrinated into a homosexual lifestyle with a photo of two people having dinner. I'll have to say that as your children get older they'll just view you as a bitter, angry man who will make them the butt of many jokes in school, etc because of your comments in the community. You will alienate them. And if someday one of them (or both) come to you crying and say, "dad i'm gay"; would you push them away and spit on their memory? Or would you be the christian that you say you are by pulling them close and giving them a hug and telling them you still love them? They are your children remember. I'd suggest you take those addictive qualities and use them for something positive...like the song writing that you were so good at. Make people want to be inspired by you not shirk away from your harsh words and uneducated views of a lifestyle you don't understand. I'm happy to come over sometime and discuss it with you. Here's a couple quotes i thought might be interesting to you by the way.

"I'm a supporter of gay rights. And not a closet supporter either. From the time I was a kid, I have never been able to understand attacks upon the gay community. There are so many qualities that make up a human being... by the time I get through with all the things that I really admire about people, what they do with their private parts is probably so low on the list that it is irrelevant." ~Paul Newman

"When I was in the military they gave me a medal for killing two men and a discharge for loving one." ~Epitaph of Leonard P. Matlovich, 1988 (Thanks, Marlene)

lurker_berserker 3 years, 3 months ago

right on Andre, way to stand up to Tim the bigot.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"I think, if we were honest, most ot us would admit to once in our lives having a craving or lust for something perverse." . I suppose that depends on how you define "perverse". Obviously, I can only speak for myself, but I would guess that most heterosexuals would say the same thing as I am saying here: I have never felt any sort of sexual attraction for (someone of the same sex as me); no lust, no craving, nothing at all in that realm. The fact that I've never engaged in any sort of homosexual acts is not based on any superior morality on my part, its based on the fact that I simply don't want to. . "Many men who would never think of homosex wind up in prison and resorting to it for gratification." . That's true, but irrelevant. There's a big difference between people who are actually attracted to the same sex and those who resort to such acts when no other option outside of celibacy is available.
. "Many men have had those cravings but because of their faith still married and found fulfillment in heterosexual relationships." . Only those individuals truly know what level of fulfillment they've found - I doubt that its equal to or greater than the fulfillment they would have found if they had not felt compelled to pretend to be something they're not. . "Statistically, the majority of heterosexual men sleep with fewer than five partners and have committed relationships lasting more than twenty years at least once in their lives...Homosexual men seldom have less than twenty partners and rarely stay in a committed monogomus relationship for more than five years...These stats vary from source to source but still expose the fact that homosexuality is primarily about physical pleasure. Few Gay men want a monogomus relationship." . It seems pretty clear to me that this (on average, more partners for gay men than straight men) is due to the fact that men in general - gay or straight - tend to have a stronger sex drive than women do. The fact that women, in general, are less willing to have sex with a large number of different people and/or with people they don't know very well (and the strong double standard of social disapproval for women vs respect for men who do that reinforces whatever "natural" limitations on sexual activity that women may have) is the limiting factor for straight men - not any greater willpower, morality, or other self-imposed limit on the part of straight men compared to gay men. As for your assertion that few gay men want a monogamous relationship, I'd have to see some conclusive proof to back that up - such proof would need to include a comparison with straight men's average level of "want(ing) a monogamous relationship." Even if such proof exists, average tendencies of groups don't prove anything about individuals.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"The point being what they desire is in no way simular to that of hetero people." . That's the crux of the problem with any sort of bigotry - whether it's against people with different sexual orientation, different race, nationality, religion, and so on. The conviction that those Other people are fundamentally different from Us. Its true that there are many differences among people, but its ridiculous to deny the fact that we share a common humanity - that under the surface we're all very similar; we have similar hopes and dreams and various emotional/psychological needs and desires. . "What a man feels for a man is not the same as what a man feels for a woman." . How can you claim to know that? The only thing anybody knows for certain is how they themselves feel. And the preponderence of evidence strongly suggests that despite our superficial differences, humans share essentially the same hopes, dreams, desires, emotional and psychological needs, etc. . "The men have a passion for one another but it is unnatural. You might chose to believe what they feel is "love', but no one can say realistically that their expression of those feelings in natural." . This is only true if one uses a very circular definition of what is or isn't "natural" and disregards examples of homosexuality in other species . It also disregards the fact that whether or not something can be considered "natural" is not the basis of any moral system, certainly not Christian morality. Nature is notoriously cruel; the whole reason for having any moral system is to counteract "natural" urges, actions, and reactions. This is a huge part of the difference between humans and animals: the embrace of values that go beyond mere survival and propagation of the species.
. Also, monogamy isn't "natural". Like homosexuality, its the exception rather than the rule in the animal kingdom. If nature is to be the measuring scale for morality, then there is no reason for straight men not to satisfy their Natural urges to have sex with as many women as possible, without any need for consent beyond the physical ability to dominate competing males and subjugate any female in range.

Nicole 3 years, 3 months ago

Thank you for your recent posts Norm, could not have worded things any better myself. Andre - Bravo! Way to go on calling out Tim's alternate addiction, I've been thinking the same thing for awhile. I don't understand why so many people seem to "feel an emptiness" and fill it with drugs, alcohol, sex and/or religion. (Don't get me wrong, these things aren't too bad in moderation)

freethinker 3 years, 3 months ago

Wow - that was well done, Norm. I can only add that I worked in Seattle for a while (7 years) in a white collar environment where the gay people did not have to hide and lo and behold, they were just not that different from the rest of us straight folk. Coming from small town eastern Washington with a homophobic upbringing - it took me a while to become aware that the gay people were just regular people who were gay. After I finally got it - no problem - just like everyone else I've met, there were some I liked and some I didn't. Its who they are as people - not the sexual orientation they have - that matters.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

Thanks Nicole and firstlast

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

You know what folks, if you think I enjoy this I don't. I don't like being called names and to have people applaud those who call; me names. I have never "gay-bashed", it is a morality issue and no one who reads Romans chapter one could possibly doubt that being a bible believeing Christian I could feel any other way about it. I did not make an issue about two gay men having dinner, I made an issue about the media, by their attention, making a morality decision to support this life style. . Norm, I will spare everyone with weak stomachs the detailed discription of male homosex that you and most others chose to ignore in your efforts to condone this as natural. It's just not, . Andre, why have you never taken the oppotunity to write or comment if you are so interested in dialoge. Have I ever bashed you, have I ever been rude or unkind. Have I refused to listen? No! So why do you chose now to make a public display of anger and disgust toward me? . There is nothing I can do to convince you that I am a nice guy who believes His bible and feels compelled to take a stand. I voice clear opinions on morality and for that I am called a biggot. Andre, Your family accepts you because they love you wheather they agree with you or not. I care about you too Andre.

francis 3 years, 3 months ago

Andre Gerspach) My daughter and best friend are gay.I am a Christan.I love my daughter and friend.I do not condemn them.The bible said not to Condemn : Hebrew, : judge :modern day translation. But we are to judge,not to condemn.We are to sharpen each others swords! We are to call each other out when we see are fellow Christians blowing it! For instance,Watching a fellow christian slipping down a slippery slop of some kind.And steeping up to tell him or her that there blowing it and this can lead to some bad results.We are to now they are Christians by there fruit.Isn't that a judgment call?The biggest mis with alot of baby Christians is that they get the words judge and condemn mixed into the same word. And the new translations did the same unfortunately. And i will end with sin is sin! And we all do it.There is no measure,one being worse then the other.We all fall short.Your sin my be different then the next guy.We are to judge each other but not condemn.This is what the OG scripts say! We are not to judge each other is a translation type o.The word condemn was replaces with the word judge.So we are not to condemn.But we are to call out sin.

jlharris0419 3 years, 3 months ago

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Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

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Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"You know what folks, if you think I enjoy this I don't. I don't like being called names and to have people applaud those who call; me names." . Well, what you're asking for here is empathy - and I can and do empathize with you. The thing is, you don't seem to be willing to extend that same empathy that you are asking for to homosexuals. They don't like being called names, being told that the very essence of who they are represents some moral failing on their part, and being criticized, harassed, fired, and sometimes beaten or killed - again, based on the very essence of who they are. . Here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about: "The point being what they desire is in no way simular to that of hetero people." Its an expression of the idea that they are somehow less human, and certainly less moral, than the rest of us. Again, I find it ridiculous to assert that I am (and other heterosexuals are) somehow more moral than homosexuals simply because I am sexually attracted to females rather than males. Its not any sort of accomplishment - moral or otherwise - on my part. I have absolutely no control over the way that sort of desire arises in me; and I have absolutely no reason to believe that homosexuals have any more say over the type of desires that they feel than I do over mine. . Now I imagine your initial response might be that its not necessarily the desires that make them immoral - even Jesus was tempted (perhaps not sexually, but the point is temptation, not the exact variety of temptation) - but it is immoral for them to act on those desires. Well, the problem there is the assertion that the only way for people with those sorts of desires to live a moral life is to either 1) try to force themselves to be something that they're not, ie. build a monogamous sexual relation (ie. marriage) with a member of the opposite sex, or 2) to completely abstain from ever fulfilling one of the most basic human emotional needs - a loving, sexual relationship with another human being. The problem with option 1 is that it involves lying to themselves, and trying to get themselves to believe that lie, as well as the fact that its not fair to their partner/spouse, who ends up in a relationship that's built on such a lie, with all the difficulties and hardship that that necessarily creates. The problem with option 2 is that its requiring them to forego a very basic and fundamental aspect of living a satisfying life. Sure, there are people, both gay and straight, who end up living their lives without a life partner - sometimes by choice, sometimes by circumstance - but that's very different from being told that there is no other way for them to be a moral person.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

I never said it was an easy fix Norm, it may be tougher than resisting an addiction which I know alot about.

But the difference, in keeping with the line of conversation, is that I don't get personal and specific with a gay person. If they ask my opinion I'd say it's immoral; I believe the bible what else can I do? Should I pretend to be something I'm not? I don't ask gays to do that. I'd like to pretend I'm not an alcoholic but I can't and I inspire people by resisting my temptation to drink. . Some one called me a bigot and in response I quoted them and gave a very solid response, but my answer was removed because it contained the word. But in a nut shell, If I am wrong for standing by my religious/moral convictions then all of you are wrong for pointing an accusitory finger at me, it is a moral question. The difference is, you attack me, I attack the lifestyle and the defence of it. I never bash or attack the person. I'm sure it hurts to be told your life style is bad, I know it does, I was told that for years. I have had perverse temptation, I only fought it because of my faith.

I spoke out against media power trying to help form sociological trends and ideals by their support, and I get personally attacked.

Disagree with me, fine, I can do nothing but to oppose what I disagree with. You don't have to agree with me, but why hate me for it and call me names.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

Mary, I'm glad you love your uncle, as you should. He sounds like a wonderful man with many friends. If I met him I'm sure I would like him too. Just because I disagree with his lifeltyle does not mean I don't like him. . Did your parents correct you? Does that make them any less loving? People who love, truely love, correct in love. Jesus called on those He healed to Stop sinning. Loveing someone does not condone what they do. . Mary, I have said over and over what my purpose was for entering this discussion. If your uncle wants to live a quiet life he'll get no trouble from me. If he wants his picture in the paper he's going to stir controversey. . Why do you have to say anything about them being monsters, I never implied anything of the sort. I have not spoken of your uncle at all to condemn.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"But the difference, in keeping with the line of conversation, is that I don't get personal and specific with a gay person." . Well, I know that if I were one of the people in the photo there, I'd sure feel personally attacked. Ms. Northwind seems to feel that you've personally attacked her uncle. Mr. Gerspach seems to feel personally attacked. I know that when I hear my family use the word "liberal" as a synonym for "Satan", I feel personally attacked. So what you see as a difference apparently doesn't feel like a difference to many who are targets of "general" (as opposed to specific) criticism. . "If they ask my opinion I'd say it's immoral; I believe the bible what else can I do? Should I pretend to be something I'm not?" . Well, for one thing, you can consider the possibility that even if it is correct to interpret the Bible as strongly critical of homosexuality, there's quite a long list of other things that the Bible criticizes just as strongly - and that of all these things, you (and many others) tend to single out homosexuals - and particularly homosexual men - as deserving of much greater condemnation and social disapproval than, for instance, "gossips, slanderers,...arrogant, boastful" {Romans 1:29, 30}. Consider the possibility that this extra level of condemnation that you (plural) apply to homosexuals might not be entirely based on the Bible, but on the facts that: 1) it's much easier to imagine yourself doing these other things the Bible condemns (gossip, slander, etc.), and 2) you find the idea of "homosex" gross (ask yourself why your condemnation of female homosexuals doesn't seem to be as strong as that for males). Is it really the Bible that is calling for such a higher degree of condemnation for homosexuals than for those who commit any or all of these other actions it (the Bible) lists (in Romans 1 and elsewhere) OR is at least some of that extra-strong condemnation reserved only for homosexuals because of other, non-Bibilical reasons. . "But in a nut shell, If I am wrong for standing by my religious/moral convictions then all of you are wrong for pointing an accusitory finger at me, it is a moral question." . Well, at least from my point of view, what I'm doing here is not so much pointing an accusitory finger at you as I am defending others from your accusitory finger. In any case, don't your religious/moral convictions also include caring for the poor, the sick, the orphaned, and so on? Why not speak out as passionately for these things as you currently speak out against homosexuality?

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

Norm, rapists and murderers and arrogant and slanderous don't make the news trying to find support for their sin, it's as simple as that. If anyone attempts to justify sin I will counter, regardless of what it is. I sin, I AM A SINNER, but I know I am, I know when I do sin, and I repent and get on with things.

I would protest just as strongly against lesbianism but it doesn't make the paper as often. But I will admit, being a man, and knowing what Gay men do that is "Un-Natural", and having twice had gay men attempt to grope me as a young man, I do have a bias. I try to keep my protest scriptural through.

freethinker 3 years, 3 months ago

What would be worse, two "out" homosexual people sharing a meal or two "out" atheist people sharing a meal? Yeah I know - they are both condemned, yada yada yada, just kinda wondering which type would get the deeper darker pit in hell? I do know neither type can be a Boy Scout!

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

These guys were eating dinner, Tim, not "trying to find support for their sin". You're objecting to a picture of two people eating dinner.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

What "Poison" have I spread? I have spoken only that which I believe to be truth. Where have I objected to their "peaceful existance"? I have not even discussed them except where others hove brought it up. . You ask me to be what Jesus was not, He was not quiet on the subject of sin, Jesus talked more about hell than He did about heaven, the cry was not love it was repent! Our first and most important commandment is to Love the Lord with all our heart and mind and strength.
. If we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We cannot ignore sin and be made righteous. I pray someday, somehow you will understand it is my love for my neighbor that brings me to take a stand. I have made one statement consistantly all the way through, the bible says it, I believe it, and I can do no different. I finished speaking my peace long ago, it is the protests of others that keep this going.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

NO! NO! NO! I did not say "All gays go to hell" except in the context of saying just the opposite. I said I would never say that! . The rest of that is mine from my very first post. And don't leave out this, "My issue here is not with gays, but with the media for promoting it as just another life style." . I have said all along, I am not a gay basher. But the bible says it is not natural andx I will not sit by and let others contend that it is.

girlfawkes 3 years, 3 months ago

Why do the shells sometimes stick to hard-boiled eggs???? It makes them so hard to peel!

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

Lois, please go back and read. You can't accuse me of things like above and claim you did. . These forums are here for people to state their minds. I do not argue my own claims here but only those of the Bible.
. You are really going to love this but a friend invited me to street preach at the Gay Pride parade in down town Seattle last summer. I showed up and He gave me a sign proclaiming Homosex a sin and I stood there with no idea what to do. The guy I was with did alot of loud preaching telling people to read their bible and people walked by and cussed me and flipped me off and called me names and laughed at me. They were all angry and hateful and guess what, I didn't blame them. They wanted to be proud of what they are and I was there to tell them different. But those who did talk to me civil, all walked away on good terms. One woman said, "Why do you hate us?" And I said I wouldn't be there if I did, I'd be at home with my family. One young man came up and asked me for a hug, so I hugged him. But he had to make it something perverted, but I didn't get angry I just asked him to let go. One guy started hitting me for no reason, just playfully first then harder and harder. I'm not a small man and I could have hurt him but I finally called to a near by police officer and the young man ran away. He was trying to provoke me. . The thing is, people expected me to hate them and to be hateful because I carried a sign that said "repent". I just kept telling them Jesus loves them and wants them to come to righteousness. some would sneek up behind me and put pro gay stickers on my back or pose in some disgusting manor while a friend took pictures, but I couldn't hate them, and a few actually listened and they knew I loved Jesus. . Think what you will, I am not here out of anger or outrage, but for righteousness sake.

Peace, Blessings, Tim

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"Jesus talked more about hell than He did about heaven," . What do you base that claim on? I just did two searches of multiple translations, limited to the Gospels, on Bible Gateway and it returned 16 hits for "hell" and 159 hits for "heaven". Obviously, this point is not particularly relevant one way or the other, but this claim you're making in order to support your argument does not seem to be factually correct.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"My issue here is not with gays, but with the media for promoting it as just another life style." . Well, if you think that a picture of two people eating dinner is "promoting (homosexuality) as just another life style", then you're using a pretty broad definition of "promoting." Let's look again at the exact words they used to caption the picture: "Oran Ritch, left, and his domestic partner, Allen Smith, toast Oran’s birthday earlier this month..." I don't know how they could possibly write a more neutral caption than that. It seems to me that what you are objecting to here is not any sort of promotion (since there is none), but neutrality - an absence of condemnation. . "I have said all along, I am not a gay basher." . What is your definition of a "gay basher" ? . "But the bible says it is not natural andx I will not sit by and let others contend that it is." . Again, there is no such contention in the picture and caption that you objected to; what you are objecting to is the unequivocally neutral stance taken by the paper, neither endorsing nor condemning the people eating dinner. . Regarding the question of what is or isn't natural, I addressed that earlier: "...whether or not something can be considered "natural" is not the basis of any moral system, certainly not Christian morality. Nature is notoriously cruel; the whole reason for having any moral system is to counteract "natural" urges, actions, and reactions. This is a huge part of the difference between humans and animals: the embrace of values that go beyond mere survival and propagation of the species.
. Also, monogamy isn't "natural". Like homosexuality, its the exception rather than the rule in the animal kingdom. If nature is to be the measuring scale for morality, then there is no reason for straight men not to satisfy their Natural urges to have sex with as many women as possible, without any need for consent beyond the physical ability to dominate competing males and subjugate any female in range."

StephanieMears 3 years, 3 months ago

What really floors me is that by publishing a picture, the paper is suddenly "endorsing" or "promoting" the gay lifestyle. . No. The paper is a reflection of the community. The paper did not manufacture this photo, did not set it up. They took a picture of something that was happening in the community, nothing more. . They are no more promoting or endorsing the gay lifestyle than they are rollerblading (which there was a photo of two girls rollerblading in the park just the other day). They aren't promoting crime when they print a photo of a criminal standing trial, nor reckless driving when they post a photo of a car accident. They are merely informing us what's happening in the community. . They're not trying to change "the social and moral attitudes of the people" as Tim said. This activity is already happening, all around us, and the paper is just a mirror. . Are you asking the paper to censor what they print? That they should only print what you believe in? . If you want a one-sided view of what's going on in your community, move to a community of people who are all just like you and believe exactly as you do.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

I have answered all these things too many times. And the WW is censoring me and removing posts so I'm done with this topic for now. When I report rudeness they leave it, but when I respond in defence the take my post away. . The media loves to promote their world view and it is a very liberal one. They know it brings contraversy and they like it.
. If you guys want to keep dragging this through the mud go ahead. I've said my peace, again and again and again...

artmann 3 years, 3 months ago

Maybe you really aren't getting it Stephanie. Homosexuality is a sin. To print a picture of two people in that manner is just stupid. This Valley is largely conservative and Christian. I don't think a picture of a man and woman in an adulturous affair would be too smart either. Again adultery a sin. Most people do not want to open the paper and see a picture of something sinful and deviant. All you will hear in the future is the paper crying about business being down. It won't be a mystery why.

Mom 3 years, 3 months ago

Tim, I've read all of what you have written including your life story. What strikes me is that you spent the first 46 years of your life doing other than what you now believe is Biblical. I have no doubt that you heard the message of Christ's sacrifice, but did not choose to follow it or hear it up until that time. So now you are saying that you have to bring this message to people, specifically Gay people, because it's your job to bring them the message. Do you see any irony to this that you think they have not heard this message, while you lived 46 years not following the Word of God, but surely hearing the message? You are not telling them anything new or bringing the Word of God to them at all. They know and they make their decision in their own hearts as to what direction they will or should go. Again, it's not your job to judge anyone nor to condemn them. Also, as people have pointed out, you continually choose homosexuality to criticize and condemn but totally ignore the other sins listed in the Bible. According to the Bible, no one sin is worse than the next,and your lack of humility is a sin as well and equal to any sin of the flesh that you choose to condemn. If you think you are humble, think again, it doesn't come across that way to anyone else. Why don't you focus on yourself rather than everyone else? As the Bible says, do not look for the speck in another one's eye when there is a log in your own. I know that I paraphrased that since I can't remember where it came from exactly, but that's the gist of it. Look to yourself to live a Christian life and be an example to others by how you live. That is much more likely to bring them to your Christian beliefs than by pointing out what they are doing wrong.
I have been a Christian for many years and still find myself struggling with sin. I guess that's why I choose not to judge others. How could I when I know my sins and imperfections?

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

I'll try to make this brief. I got just as bashed or more so for protesting the "Sexpresso" shops in Yakima. That story has come back and I was second to comment (Yakima decided to allow them). I protest people who defend sinful things. Go over to the Wenatchee Cohort blog, I'm being bashed for believing the Bible. . Susan, if anyone would have stood by me as an alcoholic and worse and said, "It's ok, you were born that way and we love you that way" I might never have changed. It was the constant reminder that I was not living right that drove me to repentance and ASKING FOR HELP, to overcome. Thats what people do with the sin of homosex and it is always in the news and I will continue to protest; not the people but the support of the sin. . As for my humility, to defend it wouldn't be very humble now would it. I feel totally inadiquate for what I do, I am not that smart nor do I express myself well, but I am passionate about the things of God. Humility doesn't make you shrink away, it makes you ask for help and trust the Lord. I do live by what I preach and I do sin. And every time I hear a sermon on sin I am convicted, but it causes me to repent, not get angery.

IN these situations I too wonder that good I'm doing and I remember that some people plant while others harvest. I believe there is someone reading this who needs to know they can repent and be saved; that God loves them and has paid for that sin; or maybe just that they don't need to believe the world when everyone says too, they can still believe their Bible.

I do pray that you all find a real productive relationship with your Savior.

Blessings, Tim

girlfawkes 3 years, 3 months ago

" I got just as bashed or more so for protesting the "Sexpresso" shops in Yakima. That story has come back and I was second to comment (Yakima decided to allow them). I protest people who defend sinful things." . If you can't take it, don't dish it out. Just saying. . That said, I actually admire your conviction. Maybe not the content of that conviction, but the fact that it's consistent and unwavering.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"As for my humility, to defend it wouldn't be very humble now would it" . Perhaps it wouldn't. Another possible response to a claim that you lack humility (besides an automatic defense) is to consider: a) whether there is any degree of merit to that claim, and/or b) why somebody might have that impression, even if they are mistaken about it. .

StephanieMears 3 years, 3 months ago

Art, . I disagree with your statement that homosexuality is a sin or deviant, but that's not what I'm arguing here. . Theft is a sin, but the paper isn't promoting theft by showing a photo of someone caught in the act, are they? No. No more than the paper is promoting any particular kind of lifestyle with this photo. . All of this controversy over a photo of two men having dinner. If the caption didn't say "domestic partners", not a single one of you would have anything to say. You're certainly not changing any minds with your hateful comments.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

If you do not see this picture as a conscience effort by the WW to soften their conservitive readership toward homosexual relationship, then I would say the media is winning. Ten years ago even those who approved would have been shocked to see an acknowledged gay couple casually photographed, not related to a story. . I'm not even shocked, I'm just protesting it as unnecessarily provocative. It was done, in my opinion, to make a statement.

StephanieMears 3 years, 3 months ago

Tim, You said, "Ten years ago even those who approved would have been shocked to see an acknowledged gay couple casually photographed, not related to a story." . That's because ten years ago it wasn't as accepted in the community. People who were gay had to hide, and in this instance, likely would have passed themselves off as friends out having dinner instead of identifying themselves as partners. . The fact that it's more accepted now has very, very little to do with what's portrayed in the media, and much more to do with people learning to accept that how other people live their lives isn't as important as how you live your own. . If you're so convinced that it was done to make a statement, why don't you ask the photographer, or call up one of the editors and flat-out ask them? You might be surprised. . Personally, I think the only statement being made is to try to portray a balanced view of the community. Whether you like it or not, homosexual couples are all around us in this valley, living happy, productive lives and celebrating the same milestones you and I celebrate by going out to dinner. . How balanced of a view of the community would it be if the photographers deliberately avoided controversial situations, or the editors refused to print them, simply because some readers might object? That would be pretty one-sided, and would actually make me pretty upset, because I don't believe the same way that you do. I don't want a 100% conservative viewpoint in our paper, nor do I want a 100% liberal viewpoint. I want a mix, a fair and balanced viewpoint. . Once you start censoring and hiding things, where do you stop? . And why does there need to be an agenda? If they didn't print it, took it and deliberately didn't print it, THAT would also be an agenda, by your definition, to sweep it under the rug, even though it's happening, not manufactured. . Why are so many readers so eager to attach negative connotations to the motives of the people at the paper? So many comments that I read on here automatically assume that "they" (the reporter, the editors, the photographers, the publisher) did it on purpose for nefarious reasons. What really gets me are the people who complain that the paper's too liberal, and then you get others complaining that it's too conservative. Can't be both, can it? So isn't it just POSSIBLE that it's -your- thoughts that are coloring your perceptions? . You have to remember, the people that work there are people. Not faceless enemies with nefarious agendas, trying to corrupt our youth. They're locals. They're trying to tell the truth in the most humane way possible while not allowing their personal beliefs to color what they present. . Personally, I think they're doing the job just perfect if nearly everyone is complaining. That means they're not favoring anyone.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

You live in a buble if you don't think the media is slanted liberal.
. You don't really think the masses slowly turned to acceptance of something they collectively thought was disgusting? It's taken hollywood and the media years to accomplish that. Come on, give them some credit for their effort. . I sense this going some place deep and pointless; we're never going to agree. . Artmann, the truth will set you free. Girlfawkes, thanks, that means alot.

Blessings all, Tim

commonsense 3 years, 3 months ago

"Once you start censoring and hiding things, where do you stop?" . Once you open this can of worms where will it end? . I 100% agree with what Tim is trying to convey. Tim, I admire your courage to stand up for what you believe, you are a rare lot these days. . A sexual relationship between a consenting man and a woman of age, is and has usually been, considered the basis of "normal sexual behavior". The continuation of our species depends on it. . Deviant sexual behavior is not considered "normal sexual behavior" . Homo sex is, by definition, is not normal and therefore is considered deviant sexual behavior. . If the media wants to promote deviant sexual behavior, then what about the other forms of deviant sexual behavior don’t they deserve equal attention? . Such as:

fetishists, masochists, nymphomaniacs, child molesters, pedophiles, miscreants, sadists, masochists, letches, sodomists, all of which are defined as "deviant".

www.thefreedictionary.com/deviant . By the same token, a photo of a necrophiliac out for a bike ride with their "domestic partner" deserves equal billing. . (Of course it will have to be a bicycle built for two, and I'm pretty sure only one will be pedaling :) Sorry I couldn’t help myself. . The point is, once the media starts promoting deviant sexual actions and/or relationships, where will it end? . Will anything, anytime, anywhere with anyone or anything, be acceptable somewhere down the road? . If the media continues to promote deviant sexual behavior, it may not be too far off.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"You don't really think the masses slowly turned to acceptance of something they collectively thought was disgusting? It's taken hollywood and the media years to accomplish that." . The premise in your first sentence is correct, but it doesn't support the conclusion you reach in your second sentence. . The media has followed the growing societal acceptance of homosexuals, not led it. That acceptance has grown as a result of homosexuals standing up for their civil rights and demanding equal treatment under the law. The most powerful aspect of that campaign has been the simple but very courageous act of "coming out of the closet" and admitting to their friends and family that they are gay. People who would never have considered accepting homosexuals have changed their way of thinking when they learned that their family members and friends - regular people that they know and care about - are gay. . Do you really think it was Keith Olbermann or Dan Rather that convinced Dick Cheney to support gay marriage and allowing homosexuals to serve openly in the armed forces? It was his daughter, and his enlightened decision to accept her for who she is, that led him to change his mind.

francis 3 years, 3 months ago

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StephanieMears 3 years, 3 months ago

Norm, . You said, "The media has followed the growing societal acceptance of homosexuals, not led it." . EXACTLY what I was trying to get across and what was being glossed right over. The media is not leading some liberal charge to change society, it's just reflecting what's already there. Especially -our- paper. Why on earth would the Wenatchee World have an agenda to promote homosexuality? . The media isn't slanted liberally on the whole. Some organizations/publications definitely are, but then again, some are slanted WAY to the right (Fox News, anyone?). Tim, what you're labeling a liberal slant is open-minded and educated, not left-wing. I was raised in an extremely conservative home, and until I went to college, I parroted everything I'd been taught without thinking for myself. College didn't teach me to turn away from what I'd been raised to believe, but it DID teach me to think for myself and to question everything, to come to my own conclusions. I don't blindly believe anything, any more. I certainly don't blindly believe everything I read, including what's in the newspaper. . Note that I'm not saying here that I'm no longer conservative. I am, in most things, but I'm more middle-of-the-road in others. It's just that now, what I believe is as a result of careful thought and consideration, not what I was fed my whole life. . Tim, you're right, we're never going to agree. The difference between us is that not only am I willing to listen to anything that anyone has to say, I'm open to the possibility that what someone says just might change what I believe. You seem to be so entrenched that nothing anyone says could ever change your mind; you only hear things from a standpoint of "how can I argue against this"...at least, that's how you come across.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"A sexual relationship between a consenting man and a woman of age, is and has usually been, considered the basis of "normal sexual behavior"." . Its interesting to note that you (correctly) only mention consent for the man. The modern concept of marriage as anything approaching an equal partnership is a recent development; for most of human history, women were treated either as property or only slightly better than property. King David and King Solomon, for example, each had hundreds of sex slaves, in addition to their hundreds of "wives". . "Deviant sexual behavior is not considered "normal sexual behavior". Homo sex is, by definition, is not normal and therefore is considered deviant sexual behavior." . Most people are straight; somewhere in the neighborhood of 10% of people are gay. Using the word "deviant" to describe a minority (of anything - including, for instance, people who are left-handed) is accurate, but doesn't support the conclusion you're trying to lead to - that anything different than the majority is necessarily bad or wrong. . "If the media wants to promote deviant sexual behavior, then what about the other forms of deviant sexual behavior don’t they deserve equal attention?" . See my earlier post. The media has reflected changing societal attitudes, it hasn't created that change. . "Such as: fetishists, masochists, nymphomaniacs, child molesters, pedophiles, miscreants, sadists, masochists, letches, sodomists, all of which are defined as "deviant"." . Sex without consent is called rape (well, it wasn't always in the "good old days" that you'd like to return to, but it is now) . Minors are not capable of legally consenting to sex, so any sex with a minor (ie. pedophilia, child molesting) is rape. As for the rest of your list, I'm not certain of the definition of all of those, and I really don't care. I'm not really not concerned about the sexual practices of other people. As long as they are consenting adults and they're not violating anybody's rights, how is it any of my business? Why do you think its any of your business? . "The point is, once the media starts promoting deviant sexual actions and/or relationships, where will it end? Will anything, anytime, anywhere with anyone or anything, be acceptable somewhere down the road?" . 1) I'm not going to explain the media again.
2) We have this thing in America called freedom. As I explained above, consenting adults can do what they want to do as long as they're not violating anybody's rights. And everybody, including heterosexuals, is limited regarding how much they can do in public. If you think that's too much freedom, you might prefer living in Iran or Saudi Arabia. .

commonsense 3 years, 3 months ago

"Its interesting to note that you (correctly) only mention consent for the man" . are you dense? what part of (a man and a woman) did you miss? . Most people are straight; somewhere in the neighborhood of 10% of people are gay. Using the word "deviant" to describe a minority .

I should hope they are minorities, if gays become the majority we will not be able to continue our species.
. "See my earlier post. The media has reflected changing societal attitudes, it hasn't created that change"

You really need to pay attention, I never said the media created social acceptance of gays, but I did say, and I'll say again that they are (promoting) deviant sexual relationships.
. If you are going to rebut my post, the least you can do is pay attention, and abstain from side stepping the issues with utter nonsense. . My point and I shouldn't have to do this yet again, but I will, . The point is, once the media starts promoting deviant sexual actions and/or relationships, where will it end? Will anything, anytime, anywhere with anyone or anything, be acceptable somewhere down the road? . Maybe you should move to to some place a little slower paced, you seem to have trouble keeping up and adhereing to the topic of the post.

girlfawkes 3 years, 3 months ago

""A sexual relationship between a consenting man and a woman of age, is and has usually been, considered the basis of "normal sexual behavior" . I have to wholly disagree with this as well. The "norm" for much of history has been arranged marriage and polygamy with little concern for age or consent. The battle call of "one man, one woman" is based on a new phenomena all together, and a very western one at that. I'm lucky to be a woman in this day, age, and place, whatever my sexual orientation. I can (gasp!) choose my own mate, and more, I can (double gasp!) choose to terminate that union if it isn't satisfying. That isn't even the norm in most of the world right NOW. All thanks to liberal attitudes, which like it or not, all you "conservatives" have been indoctrinated into. Haha!

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"The point is, once the media starts promoting deviant sexual actions and/or relationships, where will it end? Will anything, anytime, anywhere with anyone or anything, be acceptable somewhere down the road?" . Since you had trouble understanding the answer the first time, I'll try to use smaller words this time. All you really need to remember is one simple rule: you don't get to tell other people what to do. . Now I know you had fun thinking up your little list of "deviant" actions there, but I'm not going to make one because I have better things to do than to fantasize about what other people might do, and there's absolutely no point in making such a list.
. As long as nobody's rights are being violated (through lack of consent, unauthorized use of property, property damage, etc.), other people can do what they want to do and its none of your business. . You are in charge of yourself. Other people are in charge of themselves. You can hate whoever you want to hate for whatever ridiculous reasons you care to make up, but life is more pleasant for everybody when we all just mind our own business and try to get along.
. Welcome to America.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

Norm said: "Since you had trouble understanding the answer the first time, I'll try to use smaller words this time. All you really need to remember is one simple rule: you don't get to tell other people what to do." . Then, Norm, why do you go around telling so many people they are wrong. You are allowed to insult and mock us for our opinions but we are not allowed to object to someones actions? . Preposterous!

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

And for anyone who doesn't think the media has agendas: Has anyone here seen or heard a story about two street preachers getting shot and killed in florida last month? More than likely not. If that had been two gays it would have been a national event for a week or more.

artmann 3 years, 3 months ago

Stephanie you are wrong again! Actually doubly wrong. My comment contained no hateful speech. If it did please point it out. And yes homosexuality is sinful and deviant. Our society and the Bible says so. When the majority of people say it is deviant (if the US put it to a vote on a ballot the majority would check "deviant" over "nondeviant" behavior) that is a valid label.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

Part 1: "Then, Norm, why do you go around telling so many people they are wrong. You are allowed to insult and mock us for our opinions but we are not allowed to object to someones actions?" . He is allowed to insult me (and tell me I'm wrong, etc.) and I am allowed to insult him, within limits. If either of us steps beyond the bounds imposed by the WW, our post(s) would be deleted. I admit that my tone in that post was less than polite. It was also far less insulting and rude than the post I was replying to. . "And for anyone who doesn't think the media has agendas: Has anyone here seen or heard a story about two street preachers getting shot and killed in florida last month? More than likely not. If that had been two gays it would have been a national event for a week or more." . No, I hadn't heard about that. There were probably several dozen murders in the US last month that I haven't heard about. Is there any evidence that they were targeted because of their Christian beliefs and/or activities?
. You may be right that a story involving gays being targeted for murder would have received national media coverage for a few weeks. A story about a pretty blonde girl missing in the Bahamas got several months worth of national coverage, if I recall correctly. And President Clinton's affairs received national coverage for several years (if the media truly has a liberal bias, why would it give a negative story about a liberal such massive long-term coverage?) Any public figure's sex scandal tends to get major coverage. The bottom line is that media companies are businesses - they tend to promote whatever stories they think will sell the best - "if it bleeds, it leads". On the other hand, there's also a concept of journalistic integrity that calls for keeping the public well informed about truly important issues. These two goals are often conflicting and there are plenty of examples where either one of them prevailed. Regarding claims of a prevailing liberal bias, here's one of many examples that refute that claim, regarding an extremely important issue where the national media utterly failed in its duty to comprehensively inform the public: http://www.democracynow.org/2004/5/26/online_exclusive_fatal_error_lies_of . I'll leave it at that rather than going off topic.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

Part 2: Now, back to the photo in question here, are you honestly suggesting that the WW had some kind of editorial meeting where a photographer was told (or pressured more subtly in some other way) to go out and get a picture of a gay couple doing some normal activity that anybody else does, in order to push some homosexual agenda? Seriously? Isn't it far more likely that a photographer just went to a local restaurant to get a picture of people - any people - eating dinner? They printed nothing that can reasonably be construed as either "approving" or "disapproving" of those people's relationship. It was simply presented as "Here's some people eating dinner." . Your anger comes from the fact that the WW expressed no disapproval, because there is no approval there to object to.

commonsense 3 years, 3 months ago

"Now I know you had fun thinking up your little list of "deviant" actions there, but I'm not going to make one because I have better things to do than to fantasize about what other people might do, and there's absolutely no point in making such a list." . The list wasn't created by me it was what is listed as examples of "deviant" in a DICTIONARY. I listed a reference, did you not see that? Again, not paying attention. . As long as nobody's rights are being violated (through lack of consent, unauthorized use of property, property damage, etc.), other people can do what they want to do and its none of your business. . This post isn't about whether or not people can do whatever they want. Holy smokes pay attention,
This post is about the media promoting deviant sexual behavior, they may not have created social acceptance of gays, but IMO they do have an agenda, and they have pushed the agenda on us.

My question is, where is this going to end? . Will other deviant sexual behavior be next? . Maybe, it depends on whether other deviants,(how did Norm put it, oh yes), start "standing up for their civil rights and demanding equal treatment under the law."

. "You can hate whoever you want to hate for whatever ridiculous reasons you care to make up, but life is more pleasant for everybody when we all just mind our own business and try to get along." . Mind my own business? I see your name commenting on the business of others in this site more than anyone. Son, maybe you should heed your own advise, . besides, I never said I hated anyone, where did you get that nonsense? . Norm really, if you going to comment on other peoples posts please do not make assumptions, and please try harder to be accurate and stick to the subject. I have noticed you have a nasty habit here. If you disagree with a post, you tear it apart, dissect into pieces, you bring to light those parts of the post that you can manipulate and ignore the intent. That does not make sense, why do you do that? You would have more credibility if you worked on supporting your point of view, rather than destroying the points of view in others.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"The list wasn't created by me it was what is listed as examples of "deviant" in a DICTIONARY. I listed a reference, did you not see that? Again, not paying attention." . I chose to ignore it because it was irrelevant. . "This post is about the media promoting deviant sexual behavior," . Then why did you post it here? This is a picture of two people eating dinner, not engaging in any sexual activity - deviant or otherwise. . "IMO they do have an agenda, and they have pushed the agenda on us." . The nefarious agenda of neutrality. Not rising up in righteous indignation when people eat dinner. The nerve of that durn media. . "My question is, where is this going to end? Will other deviant sexual behavior be next?" . Well, I imagine those people occasionally eat dinner at restaurants, too, so there might be a photo of them eating dinner at some point in the future. As with this photo, I doubt the WW will either ask them or print a detailed account of their private sexual activities. . "besides, I never said I hated anyone, where did you get that nonsense?" . You're right, you didn't say you hated them. You're just infuriated by a picture of some people eating dinner. Where would I ever get the idea that that indicates hatred?

StephanieMears 3 years, 3 months ago

I am thoroughly entertained by what I'm reading here. Art, Norm is just arguing his viewpoint, just as you're arguing yours. You're "tearing apart" his posts just as much as he is yours. That's the beauty of this country, we can all express our opinions, and we are allowed to have vastly differing opinions. If you can't take it, don't dish it out. . And there's no need to be rude. That actually violates the terms of use, and will likely get your post removed. . None of the arguments on here have convinced me, even in the slightest, that the paper has an agenda by printing this photo. What they -have- convinced me of is that there are some very strongly-held opinions here, and that a lot of posters are looking at what they see through pessimistic glasses. You're allowing what you think and believe to color what you see. And as long as you continue to do that, instead of allowing for the possibility that you just -might- not be correct with your assumptions, then things will always have a slant. . That's one of the differences between you who are convinced that this photo is the result of an agenda: I am -always- operating under the assumption that MY viewpoint isn't necessarily the right one. I am always open to changing my mind, and even if I don't change my mind about something after hearing a differing viewpoint, I always respect that person's beliefs. They might not match mine, but they don't have to. . I respect that several of you have such strongly-held beliefs about homosexuality. My only problem with it comes when you use hateful terminology to describe your stance. I mean, come on, describing homosexuals as promiscuous, deviant, disgusting, etc. . There is absolutely no need to use degrading terminology to get your point across. And it's just unacceptable to make sweeping judgmental statements lumping all homosexuals into a single category. Last time I looked, homosexuals are human, and therefore are comprised of all kinds of behaviors. There are some who have negative behaviors, and some with positive...JUST LIKE THE REST OF US. . You may have never SAID that you hate homosexuals or gays, but your terminology is pretty degrading and negative, and makes it pretty clear how you feel.

commonsense 3 years, 3 months ago

If it was just a photo, Norm you would be absolutely correct. . This isn't about two people having dinner either. . You should know, just as well as I do, that the (caption) underneath the photo prompted all of the previous conservative posts and discussion. . You have obviously missed crux of the conversation thus far. I recommend a return trip through the education system to alleviate the problem.

StephanieMears 3 years, 3 months ago

Art, . You said, "And yes homosexuality is sinful and deviant. Our society and the Bible says so. When the majority of people say it is deviant (if the US put it to a vote on a ballot the majority would check "deviant" over "nondeviant" behavior) that is a valid label." . Firstly, I don't follow your Bible, so what it says doesn't apply to me. That's YOUR belief, not mine, so you can't force your definitions onto me. . Secondly, just because a majority of society says something doesn't make it right. Not too long ago, the majority of society said that black people were inferior, that women were inferior, that it was ok to beat your wife and children nearly to death, that we could own other people as property and do what we wanted to with them (including killing them), etc. . I also disagree with your assumption that the majority of America thinks the way you about homosexuality. If so, why is same-sex marriage (or civil union) performed or recognized in fifteen states, plus D.C.? Fifteen states, that's 30% of the country that has already approved it, and many more that are considering it. That's a pretty big chunk of the country, and that's not taking into account the places where it's been on the ballot and just barely not passed. There are a -lot- of people out there that, like me, believe that other people have the right to marry who they want, because it's not going to affect my life one bit. . Quite frankly, it's not going to affect your life, either, if my two gay neighbors are allowed to marry. It already doesn't affect your life at all that they're living together, that they have a relationship. That they -gasp- might go out to dinner to celebrate a milestone and somehow get their picture in the paper. If you're truly secure in your beliefs, that photo doesn't affect you one bit. . If you're worried about what your kids would think, take the opportunity to show them the photo and explain why you disagree with it. Allow them to ask questions, and answer them. There's no need to verbally attack homosexuals as a group based on a very innocent photo in the paper.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

As the liberal media leads the masses slowly into the sewer the masses argue, "Who are YOU to say it stinks. Why don't you worry about your bad breath!"

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

"Firstly, I don't follow your Bible, so what it says doesn't apply to me. That's YOUR belief, not mine, so you can't force your definitions onto me." I agree, if you don't believe the bible you won't believe me! . "Secondly, just because a majority of society says something doesn't make it right. Not too long ago, the majority of society said that black people were inferior, that women were inferior, that it was ok to beat your wife and children nearly to death, that we could own other people as property and do what we wanted to with them (including killing them), etc" How quickly people forget it was the Christian community that stepped up for social change in these areas. Christians led the fight to abbolish slavery. Christians led the fight for equal rights. Christians offered shelter to the downtrodden long before the government did. . And then the big arguement comes into play, why is anything wrong if you have no moral code to base right and wrong on. If you don't believe the Bible you have no foundation for telling anyone what's right and wrong. . "Quite frankly, it's not going to affect your life, either, if my two gay neighbors are allowed to marry. It already doesn't affect your life at all that they're living together" This is wrong. Everything that effects the moral foundation of this country and the world effects me. If people begin to tolorate immorality, immorality prevails, and that is more dangerous to civilization than any army or bomb or financial crisis.

freethinker 3 years, 3 months ago

These are some moral foundation questions I have. Which day should you go to church - Sunday or Saturday? Is baptism required to get to heaven? Are people who have blasphemed the Holy Spirit banned from ever being forgiven? Can Mormons go to heaven as Mormons? If a person never heard the "good news" can he/she go to heaven? What if he/she was a cannibal?

jlharris0419 3 years, 3 months ago

I'll try making this point again since apparently it was too offensive the first time... If someone holds opionions that are generally percieved to be racist; then they are a racist. So, if another person has opinions which to the general population woul be considerd bigoted; then that person is a bigot. Its a lableing we give to such people.

freethinker 3 years, 3 months ago

Here is one I forgot, I know it's in the bible but I wish someone would explain:

Leviticus 20:15 "If a man has sex with an animal, he must be put to death and you must kill the animal.

Why does the animal have to die?

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"How quickly people forget it was the Christian community that stepped up for social change in these areas. Christians led the fight to abbolish slavery. Christians led the fight for equal rights. Christians offered shelter to the downtrodden long before the government did." . It's true that a much larger - or at least louder - portion of Christians were instrumental in embracing and working for such liberal causes as those you list above. Unfortunately, many Christians today - or at least many of the loudest ones - have bought the lie that modern "conservatism" is the Christian position. It will be interesting to see in the next few years how many will embrace the current re-editing of the Bible to eliminate its liberal bias { http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project }.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"So, if another person has opinions which to the general population woul be considerd bigoted; then that person is a bigot. Its a lableing we give to such people." . No, the word actually has a definition. That definition isn't dependent on what the general population thinks:

Main Entry: big·ot Pronunciation: ˈbi-gət Function: noun : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot . The passionate anger we've seen here in response to something as mundane as a picture of people eating dinner is a pretty clear example of "regard(ing) or treat(ing) members of a group with hatred and intolerance."

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

The last time I respoinded to someone who called me a bigot my post got removed with theirs, so why bother?

Besides, if I demonstrated any bigotry here it has been toward the media, not gays.

StephanieMears 3 years, 3 months ago

Tim, you said, "If you don't believe the Bible you have no foundation for telling anyone what's right and wrong." . The Bible is not the only moral code out there. The very basic moral code, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, is very, very simple, and falls right in line with the Bible's moral code. But just because I believe a lot of the Bible makes sense, and that the basic moral code taught in its pages is a very good plan to follow, doesn't mean that I believe the Bible in its entirety to be true. Who are you to tell me that the Bible is the only way? That's your belief, and the beauty of this country is that you cannot force your beliefs on anyone. . This will be the last thing I have to say, since none of the arguments I have heard that are different from what I believe have been compelling enough to debate further. If you want to convince someone that their stance is the wrong one, you have to present something pretty compelling to get them to change their mind, not just the same tired rhetoric I've already heard over and over again, that's failed to convince me so far. . I don't really want to change anyone's mind. The only thing I wish I could change is the judging attitude I see applied in this thread, specifically towards the homosexual community. Quite frankly, even if you're right and being gay is immoral, that's between that person and God. It's not up to any of us to judge another human. Worry about your own life and stop being so hurtful. . Honestly, it's judgmental attitudes JUST like those shown in this thread that caused me to leave the Christian church. I have never met, in my entire life of more than 30 years of churchgoing, a more judgmental and hateful group than Christians. It was the exception rather than the rule to find someone who truly espoused Jesus and His teachings. . And sadly, nothing said here has convinced me that the church has changed.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

freethinker (first last) says... "These are some moral foundation questions I have. Which day should you go to church - Sunday or Saturday?" Tradition says Saturday, Christians like to celibrate the day of the resurrection. If you try to live every day holy, I doubt God cares if you go to church or not, so long as you develope a relationship with the Lord. . " Is baptism required to get to heaven?" No . " Are people who have blasphemed the Holy Spirit banned from ever being forgiven?" Yes, but you have to understand what that means. It has something to do with calling the work of the Spirit evil. I think it is an intentional act. No accidental blasphemings. . " Can Mormons go to heaven as Mormons?" No, no one goes as any denomination. . " If a person never heard the "good news" can he/she go to heaven? What if he/she was a cannibal?" I don't want to be accused of judging cannibals, I don't specualte on who goes to heaven. The bible says none are without excuse, but it is clear we are judged on the basis of what we know and what we do with it. . "Leviticus 20:15 "If a man has sex with an animal, he must be put to death and you must kill the animal.

Why does the animal have to die?" The Israelites were subject to alot of ritual, especially ritually clean animals. Anything that was unclean had to be destroyed, including people. Christ was made the final sacrifice, and died once for all. No one else need die for their sin (uncleanness) unless they refuse His sacrifice.

commonsense 3 years, 3 months ago

"The passionate anger we've seen here in response to something as mundane as a picture of people eating dinner is a pretty clear example of "regard(ing) or treat(ing) members of a group with hatred and intolerance." . The passionate anger you keep referrng to, does not exist, it is in your mind only, we have repeatedly told you time and time again but you just are not getting it. . The problem we/I have is with the "promotion" ,not with gays themselves. I do not care what they do, or who with, really! . I do not think that life style choice should be promoted as acceptable.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

"The Bible is not the only moral code out there. The very basic moral code, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, is very, very simple, and falls right in line with the Bible's moral code." It falls in line with the bible because it is from the bible. "Love your neighbor as yourself" The bible says you will be judged in the same way your judge. So someone who is commiting that sin should not be judging others for it. However, we are called on to guide each other. . No where in scripture does it say to avoid talking about sin. Look at the things Jesus said to the Pharisees, wow did He tell them off.
. Paul made some things clear here. 1 Corinthians 6:9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." . And Jesus also didn't avoid the subject of sin, Matthew 15:"18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' " . Jesus said to be pure, and that those who love Him are those who follow His commandments. We are called to do better than Love, but to encourage each other in righteousness, and Love the Lord Your God with all you are; anyone here doing that? . The only people who resent judgment are those who want to keep sinning, REPENT, and be saved!

Peggy 3 years, 3 months ago

I must agree that there are other moral codes out there other than the Bible; and the Golden Rule is pretty universal. With very little research I found these from other major religions. Hinduism: This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you. Mahabharata 5:1517 Buddhism: Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18 Confucianism: Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23

It seems that if each person who has spent so much time posting on this thread would just practice that universal golden rule, we would all be much better off. good night.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

I'm just curious if anyone can tell me how old these particular writings are? Interesting that they are all eastern religions where this "Golden Rule" could be easily known and addapted by other writers from the Christian faith.

francis 3 years, 3 months ago

Tim, your right on, throughout this attack.Biblical all the way:) Good for you! Sometimes the truth hurts others.Once again i will say my daughter and best friend are gay,both believe what you are saying.Both saved,They do feel unaccepted a lot though.And sex seems to be there struggle.They seem addicted to multiple partners.Moving from one to another,usually because of infidelity.They struggle and get depressed a lot! I notice it is a sex thing.Struggling between the lord and gay clubs where they say they end up in an orgy a lot of times.They feel so excepted in the club seen but not at church.The first time i got my daughter to church the youth pasture basically said she was going to hell in a sermon,so she stayed in the main sanctuary where she felt more comfortable.Man we need to be more excepting at are churches and watch are mouths big time.God Bless you soldier.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

Francis, Thank you, and God bless your daughter and her friend. I pray sincerely that they find healing from the struggle. I have battled many addictions in the past, you feel incomplete with out that which has this power over you. I prayed (and, this is what I tell others to pray), and told God I was weak and could not do it, He had to do it. Give it to Him and ask Him and be willing to cut it out of your life. It will feel like a piece of you is gone but when it is gone you will feel whole for the first time in your life.

Tell Her "don't give up", she can have freedom. Tell her I know I'll see her in heaven. Tell her to give God praise and worship, and worship only the Lord; there is so much strength in that. Amen! . MADGSXR, That was sooo crude I wouldn't have said it, but if anyone thinks homosex is "natural" and that doesn't convince them, they are willingly blind and ignorant.

itsme 3 years, 3 months ago

I am so glad that my uncle is not afraid to be himself. :). Everyone can say God this and God that,but God never said to discriminate or to judge.

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

"God never said to discriminate or to judge." . Well, if you're relying on the Bible as the source of what God did or didn't say, that's not entirely accurate. The Old Testament lists quite a few things that people were to be killed for (generally by stoning). That pretty much requires judging before the stoning can begin. . However, in the New Testament, when an angry crowd was preparing to stone a woman for some form of forbidden sexual activity, Jesus said that whoever is without sin should cast the first stone.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

Norm: "However, in the New Testament, when an angry crowd was preparing to stone a woman for some form of forbidden sexual activity, Jesus said that whoever is without sin should cast the first stone." And then Jesus said to her, "Stop sinning!"

Norm 3 years, 3 months ago

Regarding Christian concerns about homosexuality, here's the main thing that really bugs me about a large portion of people who claim to be following - or at least trying to follow - Jesus: they are far more concerned about other people's sexual activities than they are about the disgustingly large portion of humanity living in conditions of incomprehensible suffering that results from extreme poverty. Things like starvation, thirst, disease, countless manifestations of violence, and so on. . Not very many, if any, "Christians" who fit into this category will admit (even and especially to themselves) that they do this, but in light of their actions (and more to the point, inaction), those words of denial mean less than nothing to me. Even if words alone were convincing evidence of their priorities, they spend far more of their words, and far more passionately expressed words, on disapproval of people's sexual activities than they spend on raising awareness of the massive depth and scope of poverty-driven human suffering and on trying to find and promote ways to alleviate it. . That way of thinking and acting is so far away from the teachings I read in the Gospels of Jesus () that I don't see how or why those who think, act, and speak that way consider themselves to be followers of Jesus and his teachings. . () yes, I'm aware that the Gospels are commonly referred to according to who wrote them. I'm referring to the fact that the Gospels are the part of the Bible where we find a direct account of Jesus' words and actions - as opposed to the (indirect) prophecies about Him in the OT or the interpretations of His teachings and actions in the rest of the NT.

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

Yes Mary, How sad that thirteen year olds aren't left to follow their urgings, and that man with the extraordinary "love" for animals can't express himself openly; and that man who is sure it is his right to teach eight year old boys all about sex; and that guy who only wants to sit quietly in front of his picture window and masturbate while little girls walk to school, who is he hurting? .
I'm sorry, I made myself sick, there are sick things in this world and sick people; but the point is where does the right to do as you please stop? Where do you get a moral code if not the Bible? With the possible exception of the man and boy everything else could be consensual and hurt no one, so why is it wrong? Because we have been taught what is right by the word of God, and by His creation what is natural. Just because there are unnatural things in nature does not mean man has the right to mimic them. . If any of these things was going on in your neighborhood you'ld call the cops, it's disgusting and wrong. Only a few decades ago so was Homosex (and it IS Homosex no matter how long you do it). I don't care how many wrong things from the past have been set right this is not one, it is sexual deviancy. . I have not wanted to get into this kind of an arguement but you have raised the bar by your insistance that homosex is natural and that I should accept it. The sexual revolution that has brought on open homosexuality and rampant teen sex has helped immeasurably to decay socioty and destroy the instutation of marriage and to devalue life by the legalisation of abortion. You say it's none of my business when I've got two daughters entering their adult life as freaks because they have been taught to cherish purity and value all life? When news papers indoctinate them into the "Natural" world of homosex by putting domestic partners out there in a positive light. . The bible warns that in the last days there will be scoffers who call the truth a lie. That people will be lovers of themselves and lovers of all manor of evil. That people will be willingly ignorant and turn away from what is natural and godly. . I agree, now this has gone too far. It is just a picture, if not captioned as it is I would have thought nothing of it. I have made my protest, defended my stand, and now it is time to quit because it is getting out of hand.

Peace, Tim

Tim 3 years, 3 months ago

Norm, since you don't believe the Bible this is a strawman arguement and only meant to distract from the issue.

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