Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Blog: Werner Janssen's blog
June 1, 2010
We all know that entering our country without documentation is illegal. So is cheating on your income tax, running a red light or disregarding a stop sign. So how much are we really concerned about the legal aspects of this issue? Our emotional reaction must involve more than just a concern for legality.
The majority of those we term illegal risk the journey based on concerns for family. For many, seeking a new life with the possibility of education, employment and a better life for their families justifies the risk.
When low cost workers are needed to grease the wheels of commerce for our financial gain, we don’t seem to mind how the workers arrive as long as they keep our labor costs low and our profits high. Who is really to blame if over ten million undocumented people live within our borders? We have apparently looked the other way in order to satisfy our greed, or have accepted complacency based on our individual prosperity.
Entering our country without documentation is illegal, but our emotional reaction must involve more than just a concern for legality. We need to recognize that drug traffic is created by the user, and not by the producer. Gun violence in Mexico is intensified by our citizens who get rich on gun sales made possible by the gun availability in our country. So, then, do not the users of the cheap labor of illegal immigrant silently encourage these people to slip into the country in any way they can?
We pride ourselves on our country, and brag to the world that our country is the best. Do you blame those with ambition, but with limited hope, for attempting the journey across the border? How many of our ancestors came to this country with similar motivations? Be honest; not all of our ancestors were legal when they arrived. Was it an immigration problem or a Holocaust when our forefathers contributed to pushing the real Americans off their home land?
If we have the most powerful government, but have politically refused to correct the challenge of immigration, the least we can do is show compassion toward those who have arrived. Making sure our elected leaders meet the needs of those on both sides of the border is critical for our future. Whether we like it or not, we now live in a world community. Concentrating on developing more aggressive search and seizure procedures concerning illegal immigrants, as suggested by the Arizona law, will bankrupt us morally as well as financially.
History indicates that it is often the first several generations of those arriving on our soil who provide the most productive work and innovative ideas. Long term citizenship too often leads to demands rather than gratitude. We need to review our views concerning immigration and determine if our motivation is based on the real principals of democracy or based on fear and greed. Compassion is never wrong. Greed is never right.
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Flamebike 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
The United States has a "Guest Worker Permit" which allows "legal" Temporary immigration for a specified period of time.
These workers can fulfill the voids that are in existance throughout the country, then return to thier home when the need is no longer there.
It's been this way for a long time, but the problem arrises when they don't follow the requirements (of) returning to thier home country. There needs to be a tracking system to locate those that break the agreement and refuse to return home.
Our Federal Govt. needs to get off thier duffs and provide the citizens of the USA a REAL policy that meets the needs of everyone, but first and foremost, BORDER (North & South) security, that hasn't been secured in decades.
Oh--here's what happens when you allow open borders;
http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/06/01/illegal-immigrants-crime-spree-in-wa/?test=latestnews
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Gun violence in Mexico is intensified by our citizens who get rich on gun sales made possible by the gun availability in our country.
What a moronic statement.Please define what "gun violence" is.This term was created by the anti-gun crowd to add more drama.Violence is just that,violence.No need to tack on the word gun to that.The US is not responsible for the guns and high crime in Mexico.That is their own problem,not ours.
For as far back as we can remember we all know that Mexican law enforcement is corrupt.They do traffic stops and strong arm people for money on the spot,the only other alternative being a threat of going to jail.The same goes for their elected officials.The whole country down there needs an overhaul to stop the corruption.
Mexico gets their guns from other sources,not the US and that's bee proven.The grades of firearms that are often confiscated down there do not even exist in most US gun shops.The firearms the cartels possess are procured from off shore countries and stolen from police and military armories within Mexico.
Here is another occasion where Mr. Janssen shows what side of the fence hes on,the lunatic fringe of the far left.
Frank 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Immigration is REPLACING the founding stock of America with a new people. We never voted on it. Some elites made that decision for us. The future has yet to be written.
Fox Report: Mexican guns not from US http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-kPbD...
NotMatt 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Making sure our elected leaders meet the needs of those on both sides of the border is critical for our future."
I strongly disagree. Our elected leaders owe it to us, United States citizens, to secure our borders and enforce our immigration policy for the good of our country and its LEGAL and law abiding citizens. They do not owe anyone from another nation a "free ride" to come on in without following the legal process for resident alien or guest worker status.
Laura 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Oh sure don't blame illegals for being here. It's not like a legal worked didn't say to their illegal friend/family come here & work hard under my name & I'll give you 1/3rd of my check as long as you make it look like I produced twice as much work....Isn't that where it started!
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Flame- How many times are you going to show that same link? As if Americans don't ever rape and kill- get some new material. You all are just repeaters.
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
springfever (spring fever) says... You all are just repeaters.
Awwww,like you don't repeat your arguments on several topics.You know what they say,if the shoe fits.....
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I don't post the same rape link over and over and have to resort to your left wing sarcasm names cuz that's all you got.
That is just scare tactics and fear mongering that you and the flamer like to use. Sick using the same rape link over and over. Like Americans don't rape?
Flamebike 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Spring--If you don't like it, don't look--and It's still America--I have the freedom of speech that I SERVED for--did you??
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I don't believe fighting in an illegal war gives you any rights above me, so shake that chip off your shoulder.
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Mexico gets their guns from other sources,not the US and that's bee proven."
Back this up , you can't because they DO get some of their guns from the US - Where is your proof they don't? On Glenn Becks chalkboard?
Larry71 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Spring its people like you. Who deny everything that pushes more and more dems like me to the otherside.
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Well, Fox News is wrong and so is the President: http://www.newsweek.com/2009/04/19/counting-mexico-s-guns.html
Flamebike 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Spring--"fighting in an illegal war"
This shows your level of intelligence.
We, as Service members don't HAVE a choice--we're TOLD what to do and where to go. It's called TAKING ORDERS and following them without question. Something I'm sure you're not familiar with.
Your comments show your arrogance as well as your lack of knowlege.
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Thanks for that link mav. good info.
I knew the president's estimates were high, but not that high. And we all know that not all guns are purchased at gun shops.
Flamebike 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Mav--Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market," Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.
If that's true, then the guns given to ATF for tracing constitute a badly biased sample of all crime guns seized in Mexico. But the ATF officials we contacted don't confirm that.
This is in the report you posted.
To me, it's a simple thing--stop ALL weapon transactions to Mexico.
Flamebike 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Oh, by the way SPRING--I earned my CHIP--how have you earned yours?
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
My husband died in that war- a war he didn't believe and I didn't believe in. A war that we had no legit reason to be in. That is my level of intelligence. Maybe Flamer you can tell me why my husband had to loose his life.
Larry -you are no real dem- your voting ticket for the last decade proves that. Don't blame it on me.
Glory- still waiting for that proof to back up your claim
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Sorry to read about that, Spring. My eldest son signed on the dotted line also and I didn't sleep well for the entire year that he was deployed. All I can say is "thank you" for your sacrifice and for the ultimate sacrifice that your husband gave. I'm truly very sorry for your loss.
Flamebike 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Spring--IF that's a true story--I'm very sorry that you've had to endure such pain and hardship. He died protecting the rights and fredoms of the US citizens, we all took that chance--I was drafted--didn't get the choice.
"Flamer"?? Once again you have to stoop to your low level of sarcasm.
Your angry attitude is showing, and it's not becomming of you. Try smiling once in awhile, it helps.
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Flame- "If"?? ---you are an intolerable person.
If you served, if you got drafted, if you earned your CHIP,if you own property all over WA and in AZ . These are all brags that you make.
I visited my brothers grave over Memorial Day from another war we shouldn't have been in. Are you going to call that an "if" story too? What is wrong with you?
On a different note, staying with subject -
I also don't understand why you find it appropriate to give us a link to a story about a rape involving an illegal immigrant as if they are the only ones committing these acts in our country. I have seen you reference this link on a number of occasions. You say- "Oh- -Here's what happens when you allow open borders;??
Flamebike 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Candy--I don't believe EVERYTHING I read here. These aren't Brags--they're facts, and if you believe all that you read, you're much too gullable to have lived this long.
You want to reveal things--well, here goes--You claimed to rather "Enjoy" watching Semi nudes on the beach--you're retired, but work for the Govt' on GRANTS for DOE on Environmental research--like to chase mushrooms and Craig's list--want more??
The rape story was one of several that have happened in the state of Wa. recently,(and this isn't the same as the others) and it's just the tip of the iceberg--if you think this is a big deal, just check the news in Phoenix, Tucson or Yuma, Az. sometime and see what you're in store for if these borders aren't secured.
Flamebike 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Candy says-"you are an intolerable person"
The ones that count, know the REAL me, and they seem to TOLERATE me just fine.
Larry71 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
problem is to many people do believe everything they read or see on there favorite news channels. Citizens of America have stopped thinking for themselves. Journalism has turned into promoting what ever views there editors allow them. There is no free thinking journalists out there today. There for no free thinking Americans. Sad
lonedog3 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
so sorry to hear of your loss spring. I lost a stepson in afganstan which is another war we need to be out of!! Congress is the goverment branch that has put us into these wars. Look up voting records and see which ones voted for the wars and those are the ones we need to replace in office. I did my time in service A LONG time ago and lost many friends. Not to contridict you or cause a problem but how can a war be called illegal if it was authorised by our congress? I agree with you in so far as we do not need to continue sending our men and women into hell holes to fight wars that will never be won. IMO we need to be out of the U.N. and bring our men and women home. Let them patrol the borders of this country.
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Flame- to correct you- when we have traveled to Europe, I never claimed to "enjoy" WATCHING semi- nudes on the beach. I have enjoyed the freedom myself. I enjoy MORREL mushroom hunting and some were for sale on Craigs list- SO WHAT? Retired early, do Environmentalist work, some volunteer,etc aLL THAT IS True. People who know me know this is true too, what is your point?
Only those that don't tell the truth themselves would question another, especially the painful parts.
I don't bragg about how much property I own "all over WA", or how I fly in and out of the airport all the time, like you do, . Gee, we can't all be as important as you think you are.Just stay in Cashmere and Malaga and be content.
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
springfever (spring fever) says...
I don't believe fighting in an illegal war gives you any rights above me, so shake that chip off your shoulder.
I,as any veteran will take offense to that.The war was LEGAL.Congress(both dems and repubs) approved it and we got the job done.The madman and his monster sons did not get the virgins they were promised.
Only the
Flamebike 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Candy--You're almost intolerable--and you can't seem to keep your facts straight. Go back and look at your posts then tell me and the rest of your fellow blogers that you didn't say those things--I did, and they're there in black and white for all to see.
I don't remember seeing anything in the WW that appointed you the monitor or judge of right or wrong or whose opinions count or who's don't matter.
In the end--you are a little person trying to bark the loudest. You might chase some off the porch, but not this Dog.
Flamebike 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Oh--I almost forgot this--
Don't mess with old men, they didn't get old by being stupid.
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
You are loosing it old man. I don't even know what point you are trying to make now, except that you are not like most old men. Your ramblings don't make sense.
This is the second time you have insinuated a threat my way. The first time you were going to bring your entourage. Some members from your prison time, i believe. Are you part of the gang problem in the Yakima area?
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
If you want to be top Dog of the boards, go for it-add it to your bragging rights.
Tubesock 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
whtl 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
lets see no welfare for illegals. No jobs for illegals. damn i just solved the problem. But employers will still hirer them. Damn problem again.
Flamebike 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Candy--A little paranoid?? Was that a baby bark??
Once again--If you control the borders, you control (a great deal) of the problems!!! Very simple solution.
SumGuy 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Mr. Jannsen, I enjoyed your comments.
Bull 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
@ anotherview & whtl: Here is a letter that Bob Mathison wrote to the Safety Valve and was published Tuesday, June 20, 2006:
Can't do without
I'm Bob Mathison, a fruit grower in Wenatchee. We grow cherries, apples and pears and we pack them also. Over the last 25 years we have hired Mexican and El Salvadoran people to work in the orchards and packing shed. We have had it good during this time because they are smart, family-oriented, hard-working people. And the best part is there are lots of them to do the work required in the highly intensive fruit business. The result of 25 years of having enough labor is that our operation, like most agriculture, has been given the ability to grow. People forget what it was like before the Hispanics started coming north. Every year it was hard to get the work done. Pruning, thinning, harvest were always barely finished on time or not finished at all. We depended on winos, hippies, neighbors, ourselves and our kids to do the work. Back then, there was no way we could expand much, because we couldn't get the work done with the orchards we already had. When the Hispanic people arrived it was an answer to our prayers. They were happy, they didn't complain or think they were being abused. They were here to make money. Now 20 years later, they are our foremen, ranch managers, and fellow orchardists. Besides picking fruit, they build our homes, work in our yards. Their daughters are our secretaries and manage our offices. My point is we have become dependent on these people. Not just orchardists, but most of America. If we lose this wonderful source of labor I'm sure it will create another Great Depression not only in the orchards, but in all of agriculture and in our nation as a whole. It's too late to kick them all out. They are us now -- a part of us we cannot live without.
Bob Mathison
Wenatchee
Larry71 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Old news. Borders r a lot different now
SteveML 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Mr Jansenn, I enjoyed your comments,
BULL @another view- thank you for posting Bob Mathison's letter. You are a good man, Bob
whyarealltheusernamestaken 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Bull - It's good and fine that they are serving a purpose by working in the fruit packing industry. But that's not the issue - it's the fact that they're here illegally. Yes it helps this orchard and that orchard to complete their harvest, but think of the many thousands of dollars lost due to taxes, welfare, and cash being sent out of the country. These farmers are cutting corners to cut a profit, and the country is suffering because of it. For every worker that is employed, they're using someone else's identity and potentially ruining THEIR chance at living a good life. It's simple economics really... they bring X dollars into the community by working, but they have a negative impact in Y dollars (medical/tax loss/welfare/sending money to family...etc) if Y is greater than X, they are having a negative net impact on the community. I guarantee medical costs alone outweigh the good they bring to farmers. But I suppose if you ignore the facts, your math checks out as well.
Riverrat 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Ted Kennedy!
JohnDoe 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Bull, the reason Mr. Mathison had bad luck with finding quality labor before illegal immigrants arrived was because orchardists don't pay enough to attract quality local labor. Why would anybody work that hard for $10 - $15 per hour when you can make that much easier in other less demanding industries? I don't buy the arguement that locals can't do as good as illegals, I just think they have to be compensated for the hard work. Construction is hard work and yet plenty of local people participate in demanding construction trades. The difference is they are paid to do so. Even children of illegals don't work in orchards because, since they are legal, they have more options to make similar wages. There is plenty of room between the cost of an apple at the supermarket ($1.45/lb) and the cost of a wholesale box of fruit to make up the increased pay.
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
JohnDoe 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Mav,
Too bad Europe cannot buy fruits and vegetables in their supermarkets since they don't have cheap illegal immigrant labor. Obviously, an agriculture system void of low wage earning illegal immigrant labor is impossible.
IknowIam 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
John Doe,
It costs these farmers .18 per # just to grow the fruit. .28 to have it packed. That .46 cents of cost to grow, pack and ship the fruit to the grocer. That looseley is 18.40 per box of cost to the farmer. Now here is the bad part. The grocer pays on average just over 20 dollars per box for nice reds. Belive it or not the grocer marks the fruit up to 1.45 per pound and keeps this margin for himself. now that leaves a whopping 1.60 per box or .04 cents for the farmer to reinvest in his business, pay his mortgage, shoes for the kids etc. thats as long as mother nature, mechanical failure, market failure didnt kick his butt this season, As far as Europe goes....guess where most of thier fruit comes from? US! As for the illegals? Its a problem I have no idea how to solve.
RBYAKY1 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
You know what folks, you all have it wrong. The real reason there are more illegals then ever is the fact that when Ronald Reagen was President he Legalized all illigals.Therefore all who were in the country at that time, were given amnesty. That was the reward for all of the illegals back in the 80's. {Sounds like the way you bicker, you probably weren't even born yet}.Anyway, the illigals were rewarded once for being here and the future generations have picked up the ball. The are all hoping that the federal government will legitimize them so they then can become legal citizens.
JohnDoe 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
W RP, if all farmers were forced to pay more for their labor, that would force the price per box to rise. Supply and demand. If the price didn't rise, some farmers would start to go out of business until the supply dropped and the price rose. Basic economics. There is plenty of room for the price per box to go up and still maintain the $1.45 price per lb. at the supermarket. Enforcing immigration laws on all employers of illegal laborers equally is the solution. You can't have some paying higher wages and some not or the system wouldn't correct itself.
IknowIam 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
The farmers of Washington sate already pay the highest in the nation, also the farmer does not control the price. So simply reduceing his profit with higher labor costs does nothing but put him out of business. Now the grocer does not agree with you that if they pay more for the fruit they will maintain their 1.45 per pound, that will increase to maintain they profit level. As for supply, if we can not supply the grocer with the fruit he wants when he wants it he will go else where, for instance south america grows some fine apples. Labor costs there are 8 dollars a day. But we are going backwards and off topic the issue is illegals. Nice chat...
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
JohnDoe (John Doe) says...
W RP, if all farmers were forced to pay more for their labor, that would force the price per box to rise. Supply and demand. If the price didn't rise, some farmers would start to go out of business until the supply dropped and the price rose. Basic economics.
I don't speak for everyone but I can say that I would gladly pay the extra price on fruit so that Americans get those jobs and criminals are prosecuted and deported.I have no doubts(and non-partisan polls prove this,even polls by MSNBC and CNN) that most Americans feel the same way.
JohnDoe 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Censored,
Really, so when the $20 box of wholesale apples sells for $50 in the supermarket, there is no room for some of that difference for quality legal labor? If your theory holds true, why aren't all farmers out of work right now? I'm pretty sure Chinese slave labor is cheaper than even illegal immigrant labor. Maybe it has to do with supply, shipping, fruit quality etc. How are there any farmers left in Europe without illegal Mexican labor? I guess I just don't buy the argument that we can't survive without cheap illegal immigrant labor. Seems like a crutch to me. I think we are more innovative than that.
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
The only greed I am seeing is caused by the corrupt politicians in Washington as well as the CEOs of companies looking to pinch pennies wherever they can,even if it means selling their country out.Americans are HARD WORKING people for the most part.You can't credit illegal labor for the success of our country.This common myth spread around that Americans are greedy and lazy and have everything done for them is BS.
macs3366 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
If everyone followed through with the existing laws and not hired illegal aliens, then why on earth would they want to come here if they could'nt get a job. The fact is they would'nt come here or they would go through the necessary steps to be able to come and work in our country. Businesses need to be held accountable for hiring illegal aliens and should face severe penalties for doing so. Any business that requires an employee to be bilingual in order to get hired should be fined. We as a whole nation need to quit catering to the hispanics. Anyone that immigrates here from any other country that is non-spanish speaking has to learn English and so should they. All businesses should be required to check a government database and verify the person applying for a job is legal to do so before they are ever hired. If the SSN they gave you was listed as a 50 yr old filipino women living in Maine and the person that gave it to you was a 25 yr old Hispanic male, I would venture to say he was ILLEGAL. That is part of the reason Stemilt is having their problems with injured undocumented workers. If we would as a whole nation weed out the illegals, then they would be able to address the complaints of it taking so long to go through the process of Acquiring Legal status. We would probably be able to extend the number of applicants per year, cut down on the amount of time it takes to acquire legal or resident status, and up the worker permits each yr. But we need start with getting the borders secure and weeding the illegals out. Everyone has to do their part from the individual citizen to the businesses, on up to the government.
Peace and Love
Bull 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I posted the letter wondering if someone would attempt to defend the indefensible.
Bob Mathison knowingly breaks the law by employing illegal aliens and tries to justify it by telling taxpayers that his actions kept all of us from experiencing another “Great Depression!” These illegal people that you depend on have contributed to our current economic depression damaging our economy severely. All indicators show that our economic situation will only get worse over time and leave us vulnerable to economic disaster and anarchy.
The illegal alien issue is being used to garner power for politicians such as Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Murray, Cantwell, McCain, Governor Gargoyle and some local elected officials. Which means that taxpayers who love and wish to keep the USA a free country under the ‘founding documents’ must demand the immediate deportation of all people here illegally. In addition, identification from individuals attempting to vote must be made mandatory to determine if it is legal for them to cast a ballot.
1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
SteveML 1 year, 8 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Excellent point Mav, Deported to Australia For Treason!!
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
That's their problem MADGSXR and all those excuses don't make up for the fact they break the law and don't belong here and you are totally wrong about these people doing jobs others won't do.
Regardless MSNBC had a poll last week.
some 1 million+ people are against illegal immigration and those that support it were under 50,000.That says a lot.:)
JohnDoe 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Mav, Our founding fathers fought for the land they were born in. To the victor goes the spoils. We fought a Spanish-American war and won. To the victor, goes the spoils. If melding Mexico and America into one nation sounds like a good idea to you, keep going on with our current policies. Today our sovereignity is being threatened by a more subtle assault by people who, by and large, hold allegience to a foreign country. This is demonstrated by their maintaining seperate households back in Mexico and by sending their paychecks back as well. Most come solely for the money, not to become a part of America. With their arrival has come disproportionate amounts of crime including drug and gang activity. Our founding fathers had little in common with most of who we see sneaking over the borders today.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
JohnDoe 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Mav, my point was this: You compared the founding fathers to illegal immigrants. The founding fathers were not here illegally, they were born here and fought a King who had never set foot on American soil but yet tried to rule over the land. Bad analogy to illegal immigrants who were not born here and do not have the right to be here. With regard to fighting our wars, I wasn't aware there is a major illegal immigrant contingient in our military. If so, the government chose to make a deal with these people and compensate them for their service. That does not give the rest of the Mexican population the right to come accross the border illegally. Also, I wish we could choose who comes accross and who doesn't because there are many good people who end up here. The problem is, with no control, you also get the many bad people and their problems.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
KaumanuaSmells 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Migrant worker comes to town to work seasonal labor brings wife and kids too. They apply for and receive medical coupons, food stamps and taniff (that cash) and don't forget we providing CHEAP housing, too. So they are WELL taken care of at our expense. The worker gets paid his wage also. How that happens I am not sure but it does. To get ANY assistance citizenship should be REQUIRED! To become a citizen they must get a personal sponsor and agree to not apply for ANY assistance (ie welfare, financial aid etc) for 10 years. Why would the go the distance when they get a summer of free care already!! There are plenty of unemployed workers (Washington unemployment rate high) available to fill the gaps without the migrant visa workers!!!!
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
This was written by a Mexican who is now a naturalized US Citizen, and I think it's a great explanation of the illegal immigration issue.
Here is the quote:
"If you had tickets to a sports event, concert, Disneyland , or for an airline flight, and when you got to your assigned seat you found someone else was in that seat, what would you do? You would call for a person in charge of ticket checking and have the person in your seat removed. You would properly be asked to show your ticket, and you would gladly and proudly do so, for you have bought and paid for that seat. The person in your seat would also be asked for a ticket, which they would not be able to produce. They would be called "gate crashers" and they would properly be removed.
Now in this huge stadium called the USA we have had millions of gate crashers. We have been asking security to check for tickets and remove the gate crashers. We have been asking security to have better controls in checking at the door. We have asked security to lock the back doors. Security has failed us. They are still looking the other way. They are afraid to ask to see the tickets. Many people say there is unlimited seating, and whether there is or not, no one should be allowed in for free while the rest of us pay full price!
In "section AZ", of "Stadium USA ", we have had enough of the failures of Security. We have decided to do our own ticket checking, and properly remove those who do not have tickets. Now it seems very strange to me that so many people in the other 49 "sections", and even many in our own "section" do not want tickets checked, or even to be asked to show their ticket! Even the head of Security is chastising us, while not doing his own job which he has sworn to do.
My own ticket has been bought and paid for, so I am proudly going to show it when asked to do so. I have a right to my seat, and I want the gate crashers to be asked to show their tickets too. The only reason that I can imagine anyone objecting to being asked for their ticket is that they are in favor of gate crashing, and all of the illegal activities that go with it, such as drug smuggling, gang wars, murder, human smuggling for profit, and many more illegal and inhumane acts that we are trying to prevent with our new legislation. Is that what I am hearing from all of the protestors such as Phoenix Mayor Gordon, US Rep. Grijalva, even President Obama? If you are not in favor of showing tickets, (proof of citizenship, passport, green card, or other legal document) when asked, as I would do proudly, then you must be condoning those illegal activities." Written by a US Citizen, Globe, Arizona .
JohnDoe 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Mav,
What an idealized utopian world you live in. Wouldn't it be grand if there were no borders for any country then the world's have nots could move in with the have's until we were all equal. Equally poor that is. Undoubtedly you will point out that in our history, we had unfettered immigration. True, but we had a burgeoning economy growing in leaps and bounds as we tapped the nation's resources - until the great depression that is, when it all collapsed under its own weight. Even then, immigration was controlled,if lightly. Since those days, America has grown in a more managed fashion and our lifestyles have improved dramatically. If you can convince Americans to give up their comfortable lifestyles for the benefit of immigrants who drive wages too low, great. Call for a vote in Congress. Good luck with that. Short of changing the law, though, our government and politicians are the hypocrites when they ask us to abide by the law but won't enforce laws already on the books.
IknowIam 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
An education...
Mexican(M): Mr. Farmer may I have a job Farmer (F): Are you a citizen? (M):Si (F) do you have papers? (M): Si ...(M) produce a green card (resident alian) California drivers License and a social security card. We fill out the I9 and the W4 and he goes to work. Works hard for a week and a half gets paid and drives off into the sunset. Three months later when the farmer does his quarterlies he sends the ss# et. all to the feds. About six weeks later the feds tell the farmer that the SS# does not match the green card number. As a matter of fact the ss# belongs to alan white.
This ladies and gentlemen is reality, now some of you might say oh you should do this or do that but remember the farmers job is to feed you not over see immigration reform.
Mr. Mathison is right! Maybe a depression would not have insued but this valley and state would have been hurt. It is not alcoa or the hospital that employs the most....its the ag industry...the six billion doallar ag industry.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Actually the law states that a worker need only produce two documents. A current driver's license with photo ID and a social security card or an alien registration card with photo ID and a social security card. In all cases they must present a social security card and some form of photo ID card and with those numbers all duly recorded on the I-9 and W-4 forms they are legal to work in the eyes of the law, which assumes that if they have all those things that they are here legally. Growers are NOT federal agents and it is not up to us to determine if someone is here legally or not.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Interesting. So the whole system relies on the SS card any 4th grader with a scanner and color printer can make. Another good eason to have a national ID card requiring the same documentation as a Passport.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
mavulous (mav ulous) says... Growers are NOT federal agents and it is not up to us to determine if someone is here legally or not.
Uh huh,and you love that fact because it supports your business.You could care less about the damage you and your kind are doing to the nation by hiring an illegal workforce.As long as yer making a buck who cares right?Fact is it is up to you to make sure people are who they say they are and are using a legit SSN.By turning a blind eye employers are an accessory to the crime.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Patrick 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
@MADGSXR: Thank you for this outstanding post!
MADGSXR (MAD GSXR) says... "We need to show more sympathy for these people. They travel miles in the heat. They risk their lives crossing a border. They don't get paid enough wages. They do jobs that others won't do or are afraid to do. They live in crowded conditions among a people who speak a different language. They rarely see their families, and they face adversity all day ~ every day..
I'm not talking about illegal Mexicans ~ I'm talking about our troops! Doesn't it seem strange to you that most Democrats and Republicans are willing to lavish all kinds of social benefits on illegals, but don't support our own troops.?"
June 15, 2010 at 9:09 a.m.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
If what you say is true then we would all be in jail, Ron. Since we aren't, you must be wrong.
God willing,you'll all have your day in court.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
You know what Ron? You need a bowl of "cheeries" to brighten you up! Confucius say: Dumb man climb tree to get cherry. Wise man spread limbs. Happy Father's Day, Ron...assuming you are one?
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Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Patrick 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
@Flamebike: This is one of the most logical comments I've read. I can't say it any better. Thank you for sharing. Flamebike (Just Cuz) says... "This was written by a Mexican who is now a naturalized US Citizen, and I think it's a great explanation of the illegal immigration issue.
Here is the quote:"
"If you had tickets to a sports event, concert, Disneyland , or for an airline flight, and when you got to your assigned seat you found someone else was in that seat, what would you do? You would call for a person in charge of ticket checking and have the person in your seat removed. You would properly be asked to show your ticket, and you would gladly and proudly do so, for you have bought and paid for that seat. The person in your seat would also be asked for a ticket, which they would not be able to produce. They would be called "gate crashers" and they would properly be removed.
Now in this huge stadium called the USA we have had millions of gate crashers. We have been asking security to check for tickets and remove the gate crashers. We have been asking security to have better controls in checking at the door. We have asked security to lock the back doors. Security has failed us. They are still looking the other way. They are afraid to ask to see the tickets. Many people say there is unlimited seating, and whether there is or not, no one should be allowed in for free while the rest of us pay full price!
In "section AZ", of "Stadium USA ", we have had enough of the failures of Security. We have decided to do our own ticket checking, and properly remove those who do not have tickets. Now it seems very strange to me that so many people in the other 49 "sections", and even many in our own "section" do not want tickets checked, or even to be asked to show their ticket! Even the head of Security is chastising us, while not doing his own job which he has sworn to do.
My own ticket has been bought and paid for, so I am proudly going to show it when asked to do so. I have a right to my seat, and I want the gate crashers to be asked to show their tickets too. The only reason that I can imagine anyone objecting to being asked for their ticket is that they are in favor of gate crashing, and all of the illegal activities that go with it, such as drug smuggling, gang wars, murder, human smuggling for profit, and many more illegal and inhumane acts that we are trying to prevent with our new legislation. Is that what I am hearing from all of the protestors such as Phoenix Mayor Gordon, US Rep. Grijalva, even President Obama? If you are not in favor of showing tickets, (proof of citizenship, passport, green card, or other legal document) when asked, as I would do proudly, then you must be condoning those illegal activities." Written by a US Citizen, Globe, Arizona .
June 16, 2010 at 10:35 a.m.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Oh, and Happy Father's Day to you too" .
Right back at U! :-)
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Patrick--My pleasure--and I too agree, it is the most logical explanation I've heard to date.
Van_The_Man 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Mr. Janssen is nothing but another apologist for Illegal Aliens and a mouthpiece for the Illegal Alien Industry.
People like Janssen like to forget that Illegals are not stateless nor homeless. They have a country. They're citizens of that country.
They know full well it's illegal to enter the U.S. without proper documents but they do it anyway. They know arrest and deportation is possible--and then whine and cry if--and it's a big if--they're faced with deportation.
Here's an absurdly simple example:
People put money in banks. That's where the money is. The money belongs to the person who put it there. Bank robbers know the money is in the bank. The bank robber wants money. There are many ways to get or make money. But the bank robber decides to rob the bank to get money. He robs the bank.
Do we blame the bank for having money inside it and enticing the bank robber? Is it the banks fault the robber robs the bank.
Illegals are responsible for their own actions and control the choices they make. They alone are responsible for coming here Illegally. For working Illegally. For stealing I.D.'s. For committing crimes.
Quit sobbing for the bank robber, Werner. Grow up.
AreWeREALLYhavingThisTalk 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Great article Mr. Jensen, it's sad to see that I share a community with so many people who thrive on hate and fear. We are all immigrants....
Also, I have had friends who have tried repeatedly to fill out the proper paperwork, it is hardly possible. Government offices in Mexico are so corrupt, they want a bribe for paperwork, a bribe for filing it, etc.
I would challenge any of you with families to say that you wouldn't do something illegal for your children if it meant life or something hardly resembling life.
cmerollin 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
@Patrick (JP Wilson)
Just cause your skin is white you don't get asked for your papers. My skill is brown and i was born here so when i get pulled over do i need to show them?Or wait i look illegal cause of my nice tan.
Also As i recalled Latinos are not the only ones that smuggled human. As i recalled this nation smuggled raped and killed people from Africa over a ocean which is many more miles then Mexico to America....
you want us not to be here? then you need stop offering all Latinos job illegal and legal. until then all my Latino family are welcome to come over and work.
AreWeREALLYhavingThisTalk 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
It would only be the US's problem if there was oil involved right?
I was trying to make a point that there are good people who try to go about it the right way and can't, then they become desperate on behalf of their own families.
And once again I'd like to repeat that none of us would be here if it weren't for people deciding that it were more attractive somewhere other than their native land and therefore moving into someone else's territory.
I wonder how Native Americans feel about illegal immigration, what a joke on them. At least were are not being forced into reservations huh? These people just want better lives, I won the lottery by being born here but I am no better than anyone born anywhere else.
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
concerned--go back to the top and read these posts--it's a simple matter of--are you here "illegally" or not. If you are--it doesn't matter why, you're breaking the LAW--you broke it knowingly, and you are a fugitive.
It doesn't matter how and why I was born here--I was--therefore, I'm a citizen of this country and I didn't have any slaves in my family--I didn't break any laws, I didn't have anything to do with putting the American Native Indian Nations on reservations. You people that keep bringing up this sort of stuff are living in the past--this is the present, and we have laws, these are for ALL of us to adhere to, not to obey only the ones we feel like.
Oil has nothing to do with the fact that these people are here illegally--
Yes, you won the lottery--so did many others, but not everyone wins--even when you play the game, you may not win--that's life--real life--get over it, and
SECURE THE BORDERS.
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
cmerollin says "until then all my Latino family are welcome to come over and work"---Yes, they can--as long as they have a work permit allowing them to perform work in this country--otherwise, they're breaking the law--- see above for those comments.
cmerollin 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Secure The Border... No Country Has Ever Been Able To Do That By Building A Wall.. China Hasn't, Berlin Hasn't, Jerusalem hasn't... How About We Secure Our JOBS.
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
cmerollin--I agree, "jobs" should be a priority--but until the "illegal" immigration is stopped (cheap labor) there won't be many jobs availiable.
All these immigrants aren't working in the fields--they're in construction, manufacturing and just about any other trade and occupation there is. These people are displacing the US Citizen work force, which is helping to put this country into the tailspin it's in. When these folks get thier paychecks, they don't spend much locally, they send the majority of it to thier home (wherever that may be), so no taxes are collected from spending locally and the benefits of payroll are gone--no growth or funding for the area--it's a viscious cycle that needs to be stopped.
Securing the borders doesn't necessarily mean a wall--it could be done in a variety of ways--but, it needs to be done for the security and safety as well as the well being of this country.
Norm 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"1. These people are displacing the US Citizen work force, which is helping to put this country into the tailspin it's in. 2. When these folks get thier paychecks, they don't spend much locally, 3. they send the majority of it to thier home (wherever that may be), 4. so no taxes are collected from spending locally 5. and the benefits of payroll are gone--no growth or funding for the area--it's a viscious cycle that needs to be stopped." . All of your assertions are very obviously incorrect. 1. The market doesn't care if workers have their papers or not - labor is labor - its value being added to the local and national GDP. Here's what the (libertarian) CATO Institute has to say: "Immigrants do not cause native unemployment, even among low-paid or minority groups. A spate of respected recent studies, using a variety of methods, agrees that "there is no empirical evidence documenting that the displacement effect [of natives from jobs] is numerically important" (Borjas 1990, 92). The explanation is that new entrants not only take jobs, they make jobs. The jobs they create with their purchasing power, and with the new businesses which they start, are at least as numerous as the jobs which immigrants fill." http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-imsum.html 2. They buy all their food and other daily needs here. They often don't have a lot of money left over for much else. 3. You're criticizing people who work very hard for very little money for saving what they can to send home to help their families survive. Classy. I'm sure Jesus (Christ, not Garcia) would say the same thing. 4. More hogwash. Remember the oft-repeated half-truth: "poor people don't pay any taxes." A misrepresentation of the fact that the taxes that poor people pay are mostly local taxes - sales, excise, property taxes - rather than federal income taxes. The statement is true to the extent that the poor often don't pay much income tax; it's false to the extent that they pay a significant percentage of their income in local taxes. 5. See answer #1, above. Also, you can only reach your desired conclusion (Brown People = BAD! MUST GO AWAY!) by looking at only one side of the balance sheet. The benefit side of the balance sheet is, of course, the billions of dollars that come in from all over the world to Washington state and the Wenatchee valley from apples (and other agricultural products), which have been produced with significant amounts of immigrant labor. When I lived in Taiwan, I'd see Stemilt apple boxes 3 or 4 times a week, even out in the countryside, away from the big cities. .
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm--you can "spin" this any way you'd like--you are one of the problem instigators--just look at your rediculous statement--"Brown People = BAD! MUST GO AWAY!)"--so, where in my post do you see that I have called out any selected group? Borders, means Both--North and South. We have ALL countries illegally immigrating (violating) our borders. It doesn't just affect our valley, it's nation wide--but it's also well known that this state turns it's back on these issues.
It's yours and too many others like you with blinded "liberal ideals" and your greed that have created this mess we have--get a grip on reality before it's too late!! It's not "all" about you, it's the safety and security of the nation.
Norm 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"so, where in my post do you see that I have called out any selected group? Borders, means Both--North and South. We have ALL countries illegally immigrating (violating) our borders. It doesn't just affect our valley, it's nation wide--but it's also well known that this state turns it's back on these issues." . There is no rational basis for blaming illegal immigrants for our economic problems. The only possible explanation is that economic arguments are merely cover for the real reasons for such vilification of Latinos. And let's be honest, while the term "illegal immigrant" would technically apply to a British student who overstayed her visa, that's not the type of people we're talking about when we talk about illegal immigrants. We're talking about Latinos. You're not asking for a fence on the border to keep the Norwegians out. . "It's yours and too many others like you with blinded "liberal ideals" and your greed that have created this mess we have--get a grip on reality before it's too late!! It's not "all" about you," . Then why do you try so hard to make it about me? Whether or not I'm a dangerously "blinded" liberal or not has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of immigration. What scientific studies can you point to that refute the studies cited by the CATO Institute? Do you have anything other than trying to debate how ignorant and stupid I am? .
AreWeREALLYhavingThisTalk 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
well-worded Norm
JohnDoe 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm, 1. Illegal immigration drives down wages based on basic supply vs. demand principles. See the study at UC Davis that reported in 2005 that the average minimum wage in Mexico is $4.15 per day. Of course without secure borders and employment practices they will want to come here for much less than Americans will work for. study: http://migration.ucdavis.edu/ mn/more.php?id=3090_0_2_0 2. & 3. Same study reported that $16.6 billion was sent from US to Mexico in 2004. That is a lot of money for the number of people that are here.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Regardless of the rational reasons why illegal immigration is bad,people like Norm are never going to listen,its the liberal agenda hard at work.They are bent on the destruction of the country by any means necessary.They are always going to jump to the race card when it comes to a debate like this because they have no other dog in the fight.No matter what illegal immigration supporters think,the country is heavily against them and anything they say will not change that fact.We want our laws enforced,we want criminals out,and we want companies held accountable for hiring these criminals.Luckily that goal is becoming a reality.
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm says--"trying to debate how ignorant and stupid I am?
You took the words right out of my (mouth) fingers.
" "You're not asking for a fence on the border to keep the Norwegians out.
I certainly am, if they're here along with any other nationality, illegaly, they need to go back to where they came from.
NORM--what part of "ILLEGAL" escapes your brain cells???
cmerollin 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Build A Wall between Mexico and US. guess who is going to build it? yep your right the people you want out. Guess what more work for the the illegals.
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
cmerollin (Chris) says "more work for the the illegals"
HaHa--try it in Arizona where the wall/fence will be built. Sheriff Joe will have something to say/do about it.
Chris--unlike here in this state, Arizona and Texas take these things a lot more seriuosly and they enforce the laws.
Norm 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Joe: would you mind reposting your link? It only goes to a home page, not to the study you're referring to.
Norm 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"1. Regardless of the rational reasons why illegal immigration is bad, 2. people like Norm are never going to listen, 3. its the liberal agenda hard at work. 4. They are bent on the destruction of the country by any means necessary. 5. They are always going to jump to the race card when it comes to a debate like this because they have no other dog in the fight. 6. No matter what illegal immigration supporters think, 7. the country is heavily against them and 8. anything they say will not change that fact. 9. We want our laws enforced, 10. we want criminals out,and 11. we want companies held accountable for hiring these criminals. 12. Luckily that goal is becoming a reality." . 1. This is the closest you came to addressing the topic, Ron. Not very close. 2. = Norm is wrong because he's a poopy face. 3. Scary words are frightening. 4. = Norm is a mean old poopy face 5. a. the phrase "race card" is the magical answer that makes racism invisible. b. I've clearly addressed the fact that arguments that immigrants - with or without papers - are harmful to our economy are ridiculous; you've only thrown feces, Ron. 6. Its not about "supporting illegal immigration", its about the ridiculous vilification and scapegoating of Latinos under the banner of opposition to illegal immigration. 7. Even if your assertion here is correct, that does not address the question. If most people thought that Hinduism is correct , that wouldn't make it so. 8. regardless of whether its correct or not, that "fact" is irrelevant. 9. I want our laws improved. 10. Some things that are illegal - like crossing the border without permission or building a house without a permit - are not crimes, they are civil violations. (See: http://www.nj.com/morristown/index.ssf/2008/04/christie_clarifies_illegal_imm.html ) 11. Under US law, illegal aliens are not criminals (see link above). If you truly were concerned about upholding the law, as you insisted in point 9, then you would respect what the law actually says about who is and who isn't a criminal.. 12. The estimated number of illegal immigrants dropped when our economy slowed down; market forces, not xenophobes, are what drive immigration ebbs and flows. .
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
NORM--your link is from New Jersey--what?? Try it in Arizona--you'll see the difference between a civil violation and a crime.
By the way--I agree with your responses #2 and #4 above--very fitting.
RachelDazy 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I love this discussion, only because I agree with Mav. What a pleasant surprise. :)
JohnDoe 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm, large links on this site don't show up in full on here. Too many characters I guess. So I placed a space in the middle so viewers could see the whole address. Just copy and paste and remove the space.
Norm 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Thanks, John. You're right about the large links getting edited down - but usually they're still clickable - even where you can't see the whole address for the link.
Norm 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Alright, I checked it out. The page I got to, ( http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/more.php?id=3090_0_2_0 ) said nothing about immigrants, with or without papers, driving down wages in the US. .
JohnDoe 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
What the site reported was that minimum wage in Mexico is $4.15 per day. My point was that, of course Mexican nationals will take low wages in the US because even low wages here are very high when compared to Mexican wages. Because there are people willing to fill jobs at substandard wages, logically, employers don't have to raise wages to attract employees. Imagine if migrant labor no longer were available in the local orchards. Orchardists would have to increase the wages to attract US labor. It would upset the apple cart for a while as wholesale prices caught up with the increased production cost. Some orchardists might even go out of business during the transition. When all is said and done, though, the market would balance out and wages would be higher.
Norm 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"What the site reported was that minimum wage in Mexico is $4.15 per day. My point was that, of course Mexican nationals will take low wages in the US because even low wages here are very high when compared to Mexican wages." . So what's happening when people work in exchange for very low wages? . A: They are putting more IN to the economy than they are taking OUT of it. That's why blaming the working poor (regardless of whether or not they are native born or immigrant, with or without papers) for our economic troubles is so clearly ridiculous. The problem is the people who take more out than they put in, not the people who are barely surviving. . "Imagine if migrant labor no longer were available in the local orchards." . OK. Washington State is not the only place in the world with a climate suitable for growing apples and other fruits. If orchard wages here were to dramatically rise without a corresponding rise in the expenses of orchardists in, for example, Chile, then production of apples and other tree fruit, like so much other production work, will leave WA. The billions of dollars our local ag industry brings in will go elsewhere. .
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm says "The problem is the people who take more out than they put in, not the people who are barely surviving."
Well Norm--when these folks bring thier families that require education, medical, food stamps, welfare, etc. it seems to me that they ARE taking more than they put in!!!
Norm 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
You're right, it does SEEM that way to you. The facts tell a different story. .
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
No Norm,
The facts show that they are trashing this country because they take more then they give. I know many people that work in medical, dshs,and other services that see it every day.Enough with your disinformation scheme.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm (Norm Messer) says... The billions of dollars our local ag industry brings in will go elsewhere.
If that's what it takes to save this nation from the destruction that illegal immigration brings then so be it.Enough with the drama.
Norm 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"I know many people that work in medical, dshs,and other services that see it every day." . That's great, Ron. Do these people that you know track every single economic transaction that the illegal aliens they serve are involved in? If they don't, then how can they reach any conclusions about their total net economic effects? How do your friends accurately calulate the total costs and benefits based on the limited information they are privy to? .
JohnDoe 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm, the apples coming out of China and South America already have much cheaper labor costs than local apples. Their quality after shipping such great distances is what keeps them from competing with local fresher apples.
Norm 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Quality is one factor, its not the only factor. Price is also a very important factor.
cmerollin 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Help Your Neighbors...Stop Funding A War.....
Mom 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Just have to add this to the discussion. When I was in London last week, I saw a pint of red cherries from Spain (I'm sure closest place) going for 47 pounds, equal to about $82. We walked by the fruitstand and a few hours later walked by again and they were nearly gone. Apparently they have higher labor costs. We didn't buy any. LOL By the way, they have many, many immigrants from other countries in the EU as well as Africa. Immigration doesn't appear to be too difficult there.
JohnDoe 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Those must have been some great cherries. Actually, we are fortunate to have abundant local supply. Of course the novelty of cherries in London is what drove the price up, not labor costs. They have items there that we would pay much more for as well. Pretty awesome economy there when the locals make enough wages to afford $47 cherries. I love London and am fortunate enough to spend a week there every other year for business purposes. Their produce is what you would expect to pay there. Everything there is expensive for us, though, because of the exchange rates.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"You're not asking for a fence on the border to keep the Norwegians out." .
There is already a natural "fence" there. It is called an ocean. You need to get out more Norm. By the way, if you had a broken water pipe and a dripping faucet in your house, which would you fix first. Using your logic, the drip. .
By the way, here is some more information for you: .
"For the first time, Pacific Crest Trail hikers are being warned that people who hike across the border from Canada into the United States are committing a federal crime, and risking a year in jail and a $5,000 fine."
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"By the way, they have many, many immigrants from other countries in the EU as well as Africa. Immigration doesn't appear to be too difficult there." .
Did you actually inquire about their immigration status or simply walk by and assume you know everything about them and their immigration status? Have you gone to Chicago and done the same thing? .
By the way. Your comment on the price of fruit shows the people who want it will pay for it no matter what the price is.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
jeff98833 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
If you wish to see the future...look to the south. "220,000 California state employees to be paid minimum wage for the month of July." Wake up everyone!
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Well, gotta go. Heading back out to catch some more fish now that breakfast is over.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Mom 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
MAD, It appears that if the country they come from is a member of the EU, they are automatically granted residency. I talked to a couple of people who told me they didn't like living in London, but they had to stay for two more years before they could move to Canada or elsewhere so they would keep their residency. On the other hand, I am quite sure that many are not legal immigrants. Same problem as here, how do you single out the many illegal immigrants from the legal ones? In our hotel, most of the waiters in the restaurant and hotel maids were from Russia or another eastern European country. They didn't speak English and could not communicate with us at all, not even to ask how they were doing.
Most of Europe thinks that they have a problem with uncontrolled immigration and are looking for an answer, the same as we are.
Again, I don't know anyone who thinks that illegal immigration is what they support; it's just finding what works since we need some immigrants and that's what our country was founded on while we want to be humane toward the people who come here without hope in their own country. We do need immigration reform. This bi-partisan garbage just has to go so we can find an answer to the problem.
Oh, and while watching English news on the "telly", I noticed the two political parties arguing about whether to create jobs and raising taxes. Seems that no matter where you are, the problems are the same.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Mom says "This bi-partisan garbage just has to go so we can find an answer to the problem."
. Susan, I believe that the majority of the US citizens would whole heartedly agree with you--the establishment has and is failing us, and we need REAL CHANGE--not promises that are constantly broken.
Larry71 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
http://www.wsp.wa.gov/crime/wanted.php
Things That make you go hmmm
Larry71 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
http://ag.ca.gov/wanted/mostwanted.php?fid=mostWantedFugitives_2010-01
More hmmm
Norm 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Felony collision suspects eh? Too bad the category of "Serious Violent Offenders" ( http://www.doc.wa.gov/MostWanted/Offenders.aspx ) didn't give you the kind of list you wanted. .
Norm 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Drug trafficking is going to happen as long as demand is high; if its not Mexicans doing it, it will be somebody else. The violence associated with drug trafficking is a direct and inevitable result of prohibition. When alcohol was prohibited, its production and distribution was controlled by violent gangs; now that it is legal, its controlled by law-abiding businesses like Seagrams and Anheiser-Busch. Does alcohol still cause problems in society? Yes, it obviously does. But at least it isn't funding violent gangs anymore. .
cmerollin 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Today i took two jobs away from legal workers lol...
JohnDoe 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I saw the World article showing how in 1914 during the recession, the farmers were all concerned because the price had dropped way down to $1.26 per box. I went to an online inflation calculator which showed that in today's money, that would come to $26.50 per box in down market. So they probably made $30.00 per box in a regular market. What do reds get today, $15 to $20? So if they could afford that price for food in those days, we can afford that price today and afford to pay more for American workers. If you paid people $25/hour for good pickers, and they picked 12 bins per day, how much would that add per box? Not much. The illegal immigration problem can be solved by enforcing the laws which will drive farmers to pay real wages for the work - just like they paid in 1914 through the 1950's when they had plenty of Americans working agriculture.
Norm 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Which laws are you speaking of, John? Are you suggesting raising the minimum wage to $25/hour? What exactly is it that you are proposing here? .
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
John, using an inflation calculator to arrive at your erroneous conclusion after 96 years have past? You're thinking in lineal terms again. World economies with respect to world markets in conjunction with world currencies have evolved and changed and you simply cannot reduce it all to a lineal equation. It's just not that simple anymore.
JohnDoe 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm, I'm suggesting that if illegal labor were no longer available, farmers could attract quality American labor with quality American wages. I'm not suggesting a minimum wage. Mav, I'm not trying to say conditions haven't changed since 1914. What I am saying is that the price per box in 1914 was much higher than today and yet people still bought and sold apples. The whole, "the sky will fall and apple markets will crumble" argument about increasing wages doesn't fly with me. Sure, there are competing markets, but if the whole US apple market were affected equally by increasing wages, the world market would surely follow. By the way, my brother is a food broker with a work history in the apple industry and he is of the same opinion. The other aspect to my argument was that the percentage of the cost of a box of apples attributed to labor really isn't that high for picking and probably isn't that high for the pruning, spraying and other basic labor involved. If it is 20% of the cost of a box, I would be surprised. If all illegal labor were switched to American labor, the overall percentage of change to the cost of a box of apples wouldn't be that dramatic. A transition might be tough and some farmers might go out of business in the short term, but markets would adjust. To argue otherwise is to argue that labor rates can never go up for agriculture or all the jobs will be lost to foreign markets. We know that is not the case based on historical increases in agriculture labor over time.
cmerollin 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I blame white people for hiring everyone..
MorganMundane 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Around here people focus mostly on migrant labor related to the fruit industry. In other agricultural areas the same is largely true. But in larger metropolitan areas, with large suburbs, illegal immigrants (from everywhere, including across both oceans) work in manufacturing, trades, retail, hospitality, etc. Unfortunately we live in a country where most people want cheaper goods and services more conveniently, which drives a labor market in which there is a strong incentive for to increase margins by lowering wages, not by increasing prices. Next time you enjoy some southern grown poultry, or Swift-packed beef, or talk to a friend or relative who has landscape work done in Arizon or California, consider who and what these choices support.
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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cmerollin 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Mom 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"John Smith", Since you never fail to challenge what I say without having the facts yourself, and I doubt using your real name, I'm not wasting my time answering your questions anymore than to say that my upbringing taught me not to ask personal questions of others. So, in Europe as well as here, I try to be polite to other people whatever their status, behavior, etc... and I give respect whether I believe it is due to the individual or not.
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"On the other hand, I am quite sure that many are not legal immigrants." .
So, what you are saying is your comments about the workers your saw in London are without merit or fact, and are just unsubstantiated statements that have no real substance or bearing on the subject at hand. .
I was "quite sure" you didn't really know what you were talking about.
Mom 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I'm not sure why you decided to target me but I'm tired of it. Lay off. I'm not interested in communicating with you.
cmerollin 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration? OBAMA
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Chris--I think Regan had a big hand in it when he gave them amnesty--it encouraged others after that to skip the "line" and jumped the fence or river, tunnel, mountain pass or whatever obstacle was in the way of thier successful landing in the US, in hopes of the same thing happening again.
Obama, on the other hand, just sees these folks as probable voters for the Dem. Party. If they (the immigrants) could only see through the scams that he's got going, and the crooked people that he's surrounded himself with, they'd think twice about supporting him, his party, and thier policies, or lack of them.
RochelleReyes 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
So if you deported all immigrants who are here without legal status, what would you do with their children who are US citizens? Throw them into the system? So you can complain about having to deal with that too? I admit, there are many people here who do not deserve to be here. And they should be taken care of accordingly (jail time, fines, deportation or any other court appointed method). Every race has it's bad crowd. Ever heard of 'Trailer Trash'? So what would you propose to get rid of 'them'? Stereotypes are so over-rated. There is no need to discriminate any particular race. We are all people looking for the best interest of our families. If you could send your son to Harvard just by working extra hours on the weekends for 5 years, would you do it? Yes, because a parent is willing to sacrifice for the sake of their families. There is a movie out there called 'A Day Without A Mexican'. This movie offers a lot of facts, statistics and other information. Stop by your local movie rental location and pick up a copy. You would be surprised at how much you can learn.
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Rochelle--you make some very good and valid points. Although, Descrimination isn't the real issue here--it's "illegal immigration", no matter where you have come from, you haven't entered by legal means, therefor, you/they need to leave with thier children that were conceived soley to be "anchor babies" and return to your home country--period.
."Ever heard of 'Trailer Trash'? So what would you propose to get rid of 'them'?"
.If they're illegal, see above, if not, they are free (as long as they stay within the law) to live the way they want.
.It really is a simple concept--if you want to enter the country, do it by the methods that are allowed by the existing laws.
.Now--look at the Mexican, Canadian, Australian and several others laws on immigration, and the qualifications needed to apply and then look at the penalty for entering illegally--those are the reasons people don't try to sneak into those countries, and it makes our system and lack of security very easily violated.
Norm 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Now--look at the Mexican, Canadian, Australian and several others laws on immigration, and the qualifications needed to apply and then look at the penalty for entering illegally--those are the reasons people don't try to sneak into those countries, and it makes our system and lack of security very easily violated." . 1. People do sneak in to Mexico, many of them on their way to the US. 2. The only nation that Canada shares a land border with is the US. People in the US do relatively well economically, so there's no great reason for people to want to leave; even they did, chances are that their economic opportunities in Canada wouldn't be any better than their opportunities here in the US, so there's nothing driving people to want to cross the border into Canada. 3. Australia has no land borders. Despite this, people do try to sneak in to Australia by boat. .
1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm--Do you think that the only way into Canada is by land? Also, I didn't say anything about people going to Canada from the US--so ????? Isn't this about "illegal" immigration here???
YEP--and they sneak in to Canada to get here too!!
Just don't get caught--thier laws are much more stringent and punitive than ours.It's not a slap on the hand and a free trip to the border, like it is here--then they're back in a week.
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I said "those are the reasons people don't try to sneak into those countries,"
and it should have continued----to try to live undetected as an illegal alien.
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Mav--thanks for the trailer--yep, all those jobs could and would be filled with "legal" citizens of this country--no matter what nationality they are!!!
.If there is a JOB, there will be some one to fill it--especially now.
cmerollin 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
OK HERES THE SAD TRUTH, BUT TRUTH... ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS DO COST THE COUNTRY LOTS OF MONNEY!!! AND YES IT DOES COME OUT OF OUR TAXES! BUT LETS ALSO SEE THE BIG PICTURE THEY ARE CONSUMERS AS WELL! THEY GO TO STORE AND BUY! ALSO DONT FORGET SOME ALSO WORK WIT FAKE SSN, PAPERS ETC THAT MEANS THEY GET TAX TOO AND DONT GET A REFOUND EVER! ALSO HERE IN CALIFORNIA THEY HAVE TO PAY TICKETS IF THEY GET ONE , INSURANCE ( CAR INSURANCE ) I MEAN A LOT OF BUSSINESES HIRE ILLIGALS BECAUSE THEY KNO THEY ARE REALLIABLE WORKING PEOPLE AND THEY NEED THEM TO RUN THEUR BUSINESS, ALSO NOT EVERY ILLEGAL IS HERE TO JUST BE ABD CITIZEN THEY COME HERE TO WORK WORK WORK ! COMON PEOPLE IM PRETTY SURE YOU MUST KNO SOMEONE THAT MAYBE THEYR PARENTS CAME HERE ILLIGALLY AND THEY TURN OUT TO BE A GOOD AMERICA CITIZEN, ..... THEY CONSUME BUSINESSES MAKE MONEY AND THEY PAY TAXES SO THEREFORE THE ONES MAKING MONEY AND NOT LOOSING IS THE GOVERMENT! DONT BE A PROUD AMERICAN FOOL REMEMBER THIS COUNTRY IS MADE UP OF IMMIGRANTS! DONT PUT EVERY ILLEGAL IN THE SAME CATEGORY ALSO LOOK AT THE MANY U.S SOLDIERS WHO PARENTS ARE ILLIGALS AND THEY ARE U.S CITIZENS AND ARE FIGHTHIING TO KEEP EVERYYONE!!!!!! IN THIS COUNTRY SAFE! I MEAN HOW WILL THEY FEEL IF AMERICA KICK THEIR PARENTS OUT AND THEIR DEFENDING OUR NATION THEY WILL BE LIKE WHY ARE WE DOING THIS! THEY ARE OVER SEAS TO LIBERATE PEOPLE FROM THEIR CORUP GOVERMENT AND BACK HOME UUR GOVERMENT IS RACIST! JUST THINK A LITLE EVERYONE! I ONCE HEARD FROM A COMIDIAN THAT THIS COUNTRY IS THE ONLY PLACE WERE YOU CAN WORK FOR A WHITE MAN, DRIVE A JAPANESE CAR, EAT MEXICAN FOOD, AND GET PULL OVER BY A BLACK COP! LOL FUNNY BUT JUST SEE THAT THATS WHY WE ARE # 1 BECAUSE WE HAVE THE BEST PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD! WHAT EVER HAPEND TO THE MELTING POT!!!!!
milo 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I need to disagree with you Chris. Illegal immigrants do NOT cost the country lots of money. Studies do not agree on exact amounts but no reputable economist would claim it to be a significant amount.
Flamebike 1 year, 7 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Milo--Where are the studies you are refering to? We'd be interested in seeing them.
."no reputable economist would claim it to be a significant amount."
.To that i'd say--any amount is too much--what part of illegal don't you understand?
Flamebike 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Milo---we're still waiting for a reply. Or is it something you pulled out of thin air??
princess31 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Wow, it seems everyone is at each others throat here. In the famous words of MLK "can't we all get along"? You know what every one has the right to like or dislike the illegal immigrants here. I kind of agree with "Flamebike" on his comments. Illegals think they can come into this country and commit a crime and do what ever the HECK they want and get away with it. Well in a way they do get away with murder. There is no file on them in the system, like there is on us AMERICANS so how can the government catch them at a crime?
commonsense 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc_18_2/index.shtml
milo 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Geez Flamebike, you have a computer. I've posted links to various reports on the economic impacts of illegal immigration before. I'm not going to do your research for you all the time. But here is a blog that references a large number of studies. Not that you will read it. http://www.ilw.com/articles/2008,0107-kelley.shtm#_9
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
That was Rodney King, not MLK ("Can't we all just get along?") . People who come here to work are doing the same thing most of us would do if we had been born into the same situation they were. They are not criminals and they are not getting away with murder. .
Flamebike 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm--you and your bleeding heart lib. pals keep thinking that way, and sooner than later, you'll feel the affects of the "illegals" just like Yakima does. They're over run with them, and the Law Enforcement Agencies cannot control the situation. With them, comes many other problematic situations, all of which we've been made aware of many times in these posts.
"Can't we all just get along?"--Did he say this BEFORE or AFTER he was awarded a Million Dollars? As I recall, he wasn't gettin' along too well before he got clubbed.
Flamebike 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Milo--Thanks, and I read some of it--but you must have seen that the majority of those studies were done many years ago. Today, our immigration debacle is a much bigger problem and drain on the country as well as the service that they utilize.--Have you been to the Wen. Valley Clinic lately? How about the W.V. Hospital Emergency room? Check those out, and then tell me they don't utilize services, or cost taxpayers. Also, check out the Chelan County Jail--how many Illegals are there, costing the taxpayer?
*We've beat this subject to death--I've stated my position, so I'm checking out of this discussion, it's become pointless.
cmerollin 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Today a White Man Hired two illegals to mow the yard and trim the trees. Why, you ask because the people that where born here wanted three days to do the job when it only takes about half a day. good choice... Latinos will win the Iraq war for the USA.... blah blah blah
Flamebike 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Last comment--Chris--give it a break--you're showing a side of yourself that's not becomming of you.You're much more intelligent than that.
cmerollin 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Sorry about last comment... Im Done with this topic... Enjoy the Sun.
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
To answer the blog question, illegal immigrants are ultimately to blame. However, the politicians who have allowed this sort of illegal activity should also be held accountable for not instituting the proper controls (and we all know why - for votes, which allow for self-preservation in office) Sorry, but 25% of those in here from south of the border are here illegally (obviously, it's impossible to get an exact figure, but most legit independent sites tab it about 25%). Now, if you factor in those that became legal through Bush's amnesty deal, as well as kids of illegal parents, you are up to over 50%. The problem with this is that the Unites States is becoming an information/service oriented economy. Since the economies around the world are becoming more globalized, the United States cannot compete effectively against nations with cheaper labor costs. As such, with an educated work force, the United States will be competitive internationally in the information and service industries. The costs associated with illegal immigrants, almost all of which are unskilled, are huge. Since this wave of immigrants is not a homogenous group with those currently in the country, it creates many logistical issues. Language issues within the schools is chief among these assimilation costs. Now, almost every company needs to have workers that can speak spanish, which again is an economic drain, and is responsible for price inflation. Keep in mind, since English is the "language of business internationally," it does not aid the country internationally to be bi-lingual in this sense. Welfare payments, subsidized housing, food, medical (etc., etc., etc.) are an economic drain, and since they are unskilled workers, these costs are not offset by a realizable return in a globalized economy. Much of that money is sent back to Mexico, further exaggerating the net loss. Most industrialized nations have really stringent immigration laws, and you have to have skills in high demand in order to gain entry. Additionally, illegal immigrants, and those who once were illegal immigrants and now "legal" account for a much higher percentage of violent crimes relative to their overall percentage than their legal counterparts. Gangs and drive by shootings in Wenatchee did not exist in their current form 20-years ago. It makes no sense to mortgage the future the future of the country for the sake of a few farm and orchard owners. Unfortunately, the United States' politicians are looking only to increase their cache of votes by catering to a group that hurts this nation. The only argument that could be made is that we are acting with altruistic motives in helping those less fortunate than us, and that collectively as a nation we are willing to decrease our standard of living to help others. This, however, should be decided by those legally here, and by majority.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Sorry, but 25% of those in here from south of the border are here illegally (obviously, it's impossible to get an exact figure, but most legit independent sites tab it about 25%). Now, if you factor in those that became legal through Bush's amnesty deal, as well as kids of illegal parents, you are up to over 50%." . Since you're just making stuff up here, why stop at 50%?
. "The costs associated with illegal immigrants, almost all of which are unskilled, are huge." . The benefits we derive from immigrant labor are huger. . "Much of that money is sent back to Mexico, further exaggerating the net loss. " . Much of our apples are exported to other countries, further exaggerating the net gain. . " Gangs and drive by shootings in Wenatchee did not exist in their current form 20-years ago." . Neither did IPods or reality TV. Illegal immigrants must have caused them, too. . "the United States' politicians are looking only to increase their cache of votes by catering to a group that hurts this nation" . Immigrants have literally built this nation. Bigotry and fear, like what you are promoting here, hurt our nation. .
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Since you're just making stuff up here, why stop at 50%"
Haha, Norm. I'm guess you are one of those orchard owners, and thus cannot think about this rationally. Let me explain this to you a little clearer. If you consider the number of applicants we allow into the country annually from each nation, then consider a reasonable multiplier for births, then consider the number of immigrants here from a certain place of origin (yes, simple math), you will realize that it's way over 50%. At any rate, even liberals concede this point (and anyone that's studied immigration).
" Gangs and drive by shootings in Wenatchee did not exist in their current form 20-years ago." Your comment - Neither did IPods or reality TV. Illegal immigrants must have caused them, too.
If the gangs and crimes were evenly distributed among the demographics you could make this point...they aren't. Illegal immigrants are responsible for an inordinate amount of violent crimes as compared to their relative population.
Sorry Norm, the costs associated with illegal immigrants is huge, only a portion of which I laid out very clearly in my response. You can choose to be ignorant of this fact, as I'm sure you will.
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
" Gangs and drive by shootings in Wenatchee did not exist in their current form 20-years ago." Your comment - Neither did IPods or reality TV. Illegal immigrants must have caused them, too. .
Nice punt Norm!!
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Oh John, you must have missed the response :)
If the gangs and crimes were evenly distributed among all demographics you could make this point...they aren't. Illegal immigrants are responsible for an inordinate amount of violent crimes as compared to their relative population.
So premise A: There is a big increase in the illegal immigrant population.
Premise B: Gangs and drive-by-shootings have increased in Wenatchee
Premise C: Illegal immigrants are responsible for an inordinate number of violent crimes as compared to their relative population.
Therefore, illegal immigrants have caused the increase in gang activity and drive by shootings.
Marshall 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Premise A + Premise B does not equal Premise C. Maybe you should look beyond their ethnic background when you look at the criminals involved in drive-by shootings. Because we have more illegal immigrants than we did doesn't mean that they are the ones involved in gang activity and drive-by shootings. Yes, it appears that they are predominantly Hispanic, but did it occur to you that they aren't necessarily illegal immigrants? And you are the one who lumped legal residents and their offspring in the same category as those who are illegal immigrants. I guess if they received amnesty in 1980 something, they will always be illegal to you.
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Maybe you don't understand how this works...premises don't prove other premises. Rather, together, given the premises, they equal the conclusion. So given premise A, B, and C, the conclusion is true (which is that illegal immigrants are responsible, at least in part, to the increase in gang activity and drive-by-shootings). Actually, premise A is not needed. It is a true statement that illegal immigrants are involved in a quantity of violent crimes that far exceeds their relative population. It's a statistic. Look it up. And no, it's not good for America.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Let me explain this to you a little clearer. If you consider the number of applicants we allow into the country annually from each nation, then consider a reasonable multiplier for births, then consider the number of immigrants here from a certain place of origin (yes, simple math), you will realize that it's way over 50%. At any rate, even liberals concede this point (and anyone that's studied immigration)." . You're still just making stuff up, jay. . "Sorry Norm, the costs associated with illegal immigrants is huge, only a portion of which I laid out very clearly in my response. You can choose to be ignorant of this fact, as I'm sure you will." . Costs don't tell the whole story, Jay. The gross is irrelevant, its the net that counts: Costs AND Benefits. .
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Yes Norm, the costs exceed the benefits. And you are wrong on the first account as well. But I'll be honest, there is nothing I can say that will change your mind, and I'd spend a lot time in vain. Have a good night, sir.
Marshall 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
No, Jay. You are the one who doesn't understand the way it works. Because B, there are many illegal immigrants involved in illegal activity doesn't follow that they are the ones responsible for the majority of gang related and drive-by shootings that are happening. You would have to have some kind of inside knowledge of the legal status of all of these criminals to prove your point.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"So given premise A, B, and C, the conclusion is true" . No, your conclusion again does not follow from your premises, which also happen to be false. .
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Correction: your premise C is false, not premises A and B.
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm, the GAO (General Accountability Office) found that 27% of the prison population was comprised of illegal aliens in 2005. If there are 12 million illegal aliens in the United States (as is estimate), than illegal immigrants would make up about 4% of the overall population. Thus these 4% make up 27% of the prison population...this equals a huge problem.
commonsense 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Correction: your premise C is false, not premises A and B."
Based on what? Your dorm room sheltered opinion?
Nationally, Hispanics are thought to comprise 49 percent of total gang membership. A majority of these gang members are illegal immigrants. Notes Duplin County Sheriff Blake Wallace (D), “There is an increasing gang activity problem, particularly with MS-13 and studies have shown that the majority of those gang members are illegal aliens.”9 Among these studies is a report published by the Governor’s Crime Commission which posits that 66 percent of Hispanic/Latino gang members are illegal aliens.10 In the case of MS-13, one of the most violent and powerful gangs in North Carolina, federal authorities estimate that “approximately 90 percent of U.S. MS-13 members are foreign-born illegal aliens and depend upon the Texas-Mexico border smuggling corridor to support their criminal operations.”11 As Forsyth County District Attorney Tom Keith (R) puts it, “You cannot say ‘drugs’ without saying ‘gangs’ without saying ‘illegal aliens.’”12
http://www.jwpcivitasinstitute.org/media/publication-archive/perspective/illegal-immigration-drugs-gangs-and-crime
Tell me, what are the names of the two predominate gangs in Wenatchee?
Premise A, True, duh. Premise B, True, read the paper, look around, have drive bys, and gang shootings increased in the last 20 years, hell yes. If you don't see it then you're either still asleep or you have your head stuck somewhere that impacts your vision. Premise C, True, see reference listed above. Conclusion, True
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Norm, the GAO (General Accountability Office) found that 27% of the prison population was comprised of illegal aliens in 2005. If there are 12 million illegal aliens in the United States (as is estimate), than illegal immigrants would make up about 4% of the overall population. Thus these 4% make up 27% of the prison population...this equals a huge problem" . Look, I'm not going to do all the footwork on both sides of this argument: when you make factual claims like the above, it is your responsibility - not mine - to provide links to primary sources for your claims. I did you work for you this time and found your GAO report (GAO-05-337R) here: http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05337r.html . Here's what it said: "* At the federal level, the number of criminal aliens incarcerated increased from about 42,000 at the end of calendar year 2001 to about 49,000 at the end of calendar year 2004--a 15 percent increase. The percentage of all federal prisoners who are criminal aliens has remained the same over the last 3 years--about 27 percent." Your claim is looking pretty good so far - until you read a little further and see that "criminal alien" doesn't mean "illegal alien". . "Definitions of Terms Used in This Report:
Term: Criminal aliens; Definition: Noncitizens who are residing in the United States legally or illegally and convicted of a crime." . Now. FAIR, no friend to immigrants, says that 55% of those criminal aliens were in the country illegally (ie. illegal aliens; here: http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters0b9c ), so this cuts your 27% figure by 45% (no small percentage), to just under 15%. . Now, that's still a higher percentage than their estimated percentage of the total population, but its not enough to substantiate the conclusion that either illegal or criminal aliens (different groups with distinct definitions) commit crimes at a higher rate than their proportion of the population.
. It would be just as accurate to claim that such numbers prove that our justice system is biased against poor people in general and/or Latinos in particular. I'm not saying these data support that conclusion, because they don't - more data and statistical analyses would be required to reach that conclusion. But they also don't support your conclusion that illegal immigrants commit more crimes per capita than others, and it doesn't come anywhere close to your earlier claim the 50% of illegal aliens commit violent crimes. . .
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Nationally, Hispanics are thought to comprise 49 percent of total gang membership." . "are thought to be" does not indicate a very high standard of reliability; it indicates a guess. And you don't bother to tell us whose guess it is, CS. . "A majority of these gang members are illegal immigrants. Notes Duplin County Sheriff Blake Wallace (D), “There is an increasing gang activity problem, particularly with MS-13 and studies have shown that the majority of those gang members are illegal aliens.” . links to the studies or they didn't happen. . "Among these studies is a report published by the Governor’s Crime Commission which posits that 66 percent of Hispanic/Latino gang members are illegal aliens." . "Posit" is not a very conclusive verb: Main Entry: pos·it Pronunciation: ˈpä-zət Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): pos·it·ed ˈpä-zə-təd, ˈpäz-təd; pos·it·ing ˈpä-zə-tiŋ, ˈpäz-tiŋ 1 : to dispose or set firmly : fix 2 : to assume or affirm the existence of : postulate 3 : to propose as an explanation: suggest" . "10 In the case of MS-13, one of the most violent and powerful gangs in North Carolina, federal authorities estimate that “approximately 90 percent of U.S. MS-13 members are foreign-born illegal aliens and depend upon the Texas-Mexico border smuggling corridor to support their criminal operations.” . If 100% of MS-13 gang-members were illegal aliens, that doesn't tell us what percentage of illegal immigrants are members of that one particular gang. . Regardless, the criminal drug trade is created by the demand for illegal drugs combined with their prohibition. Just as criminal gangs controlled production, importation, and distribution of alcohol when it was under prohibition. It doesn't matter who's doing it - the problem of violent drug gangs will continue to grow as long as both the demand for drugs and their prohibition remain in effect. If every Mexican drug gang member were magically deported tomorrow morning, their newly open job positions would be filled by someone else by tomorrow evening. .
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
When I have more time I will look into this further, but say I take your 15% figure. (and Fair tabs the criminal alien count at 29% - more recent figures) If illegal immigrants comprise 4% of the overall population and yet they account for 15%-16% of the prison populations, they are committing roughly 4 times as many crimes per capita as compared to legal citizens. Therefore there is a tremendous correlation between illegal aliens and criminal activity.
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Oh John, you must have missed the response :)"
That was said tongue & cheek, meaning when it's 4th down and Norm had no place else to go, he pulls some BS out and PUNTS! He can't prove you are wrong, so he punts. If you really look at his answers, he disputes opinions and what may be facts with just his opinions.
I agree 100% with you that we did not have the drive-by shoots and gang activity 20 years ago. Norm may be to young to realize this but it is a fact for us who live here during that time period. Can I site some study in some obscure publication, no. But I did live here and was the change the same way my relatives in the Yakima Valley have seen the change.
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Haha, ok, John. I'm really excited to see how he responds to the fact that he just got caught making a statement implying that although illegal immigrants are four times more likely to be in U.S. prison than legal residents, it's not "substantial."
cmerollin 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
illegals, they might be gang bangers but at least they are not number one in raping kids... illegals they want there pride back from US actions. Remember Guatemalan, Panama,Chile,Colombia and Venezuela.Brazil and Ecuador and a few more.."USA" its just karma!
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Justifying gangs and criminal activity, Chris, is just really sad. Hopefully not all immigrants are like you...
cmerollin 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Who is a immigrant? not I.. Sad. Sad about What? All i am saying is that the US has bad Karma that is all. Like all the great super powers of before they all fail from with in.
PlayDoh 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Just a question... How does someone pick out illegal immigrants from legal ones? I haven’t lived in apple country my whole life and when I was in certain other parts of this country there were plenty of other people of different origins there. For example, various "china towns" or little Italy in just about every major city. I guess in apple country, or from what I am seeing on these blogs, anyone with brown skin, Spanish accent, Hispanic name or farm worker are what many of you consider illegal immigrants. I appreciate all the patriotic sentiment on these blogs but with that being said, what have you all done for your country other than fall out of a woman on US soil? JFK once said..."ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." How many of you are over weight white Anglo Americans sitting in your chair collecting money right now? Yeah, many of the ag workers around apple country may be of Hispanic origins and that also goes for the gang activity but I was messing around with one of the many iPhone apps the other day and I found one app that lets you look up convicted sexual predators that are around the neighborhoods in apple country. So I typed in various apple country zip codes and I was not shocked when I was shown the results. From what I was shown on this handy dandy app was that about 95% of the convicted sex offenders in apple country are Anglo American, male and female. With these handy dandy results and basing off of the mentality of these blogs, would it be a safe assumption to say that most of the sex offenders in apple country are of Anglo decent? Should I go around and think to myself "Gee, there goes another child molester or rapist" every time I see a white male with a scruffy beard and bushy thin mustache driving a van with no windows (or blacked out) pulling into Wal-Mart? There are so many assumptions that people can make regarding someone’s appearance but that would just be ignorant, right? As a veteran and as what many of you would consider "illegal" based off of my appearance, I would almost feel offended to know that many of you who are reading this have the nerve to say something about this country (granted its our right) after never serving, voting or contributing to your community. There has got to be just as many leaches of Anglo American decent (no you are not native to this land) in apple country but feel like you have the right to complain about children of "illegals" taking your money when you are just as fortunate to have fallen out of a woman’s womb on US soil. Stop this complaining and whining, go do something constructive for your community, for yourself, for your country (and I don’t know if that includes patrolling borders with Nazi friends) but as you all know, complaining probably wont get you anywhere...go finish your GED, college, work harder, save more and be happy already.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"I'm really excited to see how he responds..." . I feel sorry for you, Jay. You must lead an incredibly dull life. . "to the fact that he just got caught making a statement implying that although illegal immigrants are four times more likely to be in U.S. prison than legal residents, it's not "substantial." . I merely did enough research to show that your claim was off by at least 45% - and I used statistics provided by unfriendly source (FAIR) to do so. I couldn't be bothered to do any more research than that. It's really not necessary to do anything to refute your factual claims because you offer no evidence (ie. links to primary sources) to back them up. All I have to say in response to your claims is to make a countercalim, and we're even - two unverified claims, he said/he-said, nothing more. So I went a step further and added some verifiable data that showed your claim to be significantly inaccurate. . Anyway, a statistically accurate measure of whether or not such figures are "substantial" would need to be disaggregated by income levels. Prisons tend to be full of poor people, because they are often more desparate, can't afford the best legal defense, have no connections to people in high places, don't have as full of an understanding of their rights and obligations - ie. don't know how to work the system to steal legally - and on and on. Not all who are locked up are guilty, and not all who are free are innocent. .
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Wow, you have disappointed me in your response, Norm --- grasping at straws. So, as it stands, illegal immigrants are four times more likely to end up in U.S. prisons than legal citizens, and you make a wild assumption about income. Ok.
Now PlayDoh, if you care to look at the aggregate statistics, you will find that anglos do not make up an inordinate amount of sex offender as compared to their relative population. I have done yard sales for years and never (to my knowledge) been stolen from. My last several yard sales were of a different breed. It just so happened that many people who couldn't speak English thought it would be just fine to steal merchandise, move tags, and let their kids do as they pleased (which resulted in numerous broken items). We aren't talking about isolated instances either. This is common now, and yet in years prior I had no such issues. This "new wave" of immigrants are not respectful of the culture here, as epitomized in this example. In talking to a Ross employee the other day, they have experienced similar issues on a larger scale, obviously, and now a merchant patrol stands guard. So, when you have millions of illegals entering your country, and it changes the beautiful town you grew up in in unflattering ways, it frustrates you...that is what you are seeing reflected in the comment section here.
JohnDoe 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
For anybody blind enough to argue illegal immigrants don't have a negative impact, please see the following list of American cities ranked for their rate of car theft:
So, gee, what do all these cities (including Yakima) have in common?
http://www.auto-theft.info/
TJ 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
John Doe, I hate to tell you that back in 2002 our car was stolen in wenatchee. When we got the call from the police to let us know that they found our car, came to find out that it was two white kids with no parental supervision, This is the exact words of the officer that she said. You are not going to get your car replaced this two kids don't live with their parents, their grandmother is on welfare. It took us 5 years to pay that car you know how many hours of work that is. We are just the 8th person these kids have to pay, and guess what we haven't received a penny from them. MY POINT IS IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU ARE WHITE, BROWN, BLACK, PURPLE OR ANY COLOR WE HAVE BAD APPLES IN ANY CULTURE LEGAL OR ILLEGAL. SO I AM JUST TIRED OF PEOPLE JUDGING ON RACE AND COLOR. If you see me you will think I am a caucassian but not I am mexican born in the USA. My dad came to this country when he was 17 years old he is almost 81 years old. and yes i still get discrimanated for been a mexican. After a while you get tired of getting blame for everything.
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
TJ - The point is not discrimination...the point is securing the borders and making people held accountable for coming here illegally. I can understand if you are frustrated with being stereotyped...that would be frustrating to me as well. I'm also frustrated that illegals have turned an otherwise beautiful city into a soon to be Yakima. If we secure our borders then we can all relax.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"I can understand if you are frustrated with being stereotyped...that would be frustrating to me as well." . So why don't you stop stereotyping Mexicans, then, Jay? If the only thing you have against "illegals" is the fact that their paperwork isn't in order, there's an easy solution: make it possible for them to get their papers in order. Issue more work visas and green cards. This would totally solve the only problem that you claim to have with illegal immigrants: their illegal status.
. Of course, this wouldn't change their skin color, culture, language, etc. - but hey, you've got no problem with those things, right? You're just mad that they crossed a line in the sand that we told them not to, that's all. So all we have to do is let them know its OK to cross the line now, and they won't be here illegally any more. Problem solved. .
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
They broke the law, Norm. Illegal is illegal. It's not a "paperwork" issue. If you come here illegally, you should expect to get deported...returning after deportation is a felony. Sure, you can make everything legal, and in essence no one would break the law. That's not the goal, Norm. The goal is to make laws that are in the best interest of society and enforce them accordingly.
TJ 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
See we get acused of abusing the system, that our kids are gang members. I am not saying we don't have people that are abusing the system, that some people lost control of their kids and they are in gangs. I know we have some of that and I know some people crossed the border illegal but if you see the other side most people that are here ilegally are here to work, most gang members are 4th or 5th generation in the USA they are us citizens. If we start seeing the positive side of each culture we will be in a better situation. I grew up in a very traditional home were respect is number one, my parents took us to work for us to learn how to earn our money and to never depend on anybody. I work two jobs plus I manage my husband bussiness. So do you really think I abused the system just for been latina, I am a tax payer like anyone out there.
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Sure TJ, I'm sure enrich the United States, just as many people do from a variety of different backgrounds. Kudos to you. Regardless, though, if someone is illegal, that person has no right to be here. If there is no deterrent for entering illegally, more people enter illegally. Every nation has a right to make it's own laws and enforce them. I couldn't illegally enter France, for instance, then say it's unfair for them to enforce their laws against me. The fact that illegal aliens commit an inordinate amount of crimes exacerbates the sentiment that illegals do not care about the country.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"They broke the law, Norm. Illegal is illegal. It's not a "paperwork" issue." . The law in question (legal entry, work visa, etc) is entirely about paperwork. The actions of entering the US or working in the US are not illegal in themselves; they are only illegal when they are done without the required paperwork. Just like building a house without a permit. There's nothing wrong with building a house, but if you do it without the required paperwork, you are breaking the law. . " The goal is to make laws that are in the best interest of society and enforce them accordingly" . So why wouldn't a law that changed immigration quotas to let more people work here legally be "in the best interest of society"? Becuase you are defining the "best interest of society" as keeping as many Mexicans out as possible, and deporting as many as possible of those who are already here. .
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
It's not in the best interests of society, Norm...only the in the best interests of a few farm and orchard owners.
Now Norm, your post about paperwork is idiotic. It's actually fairly difficult to get into the United States, believe it or not. It's not a simple paperwork exercise. It's not a matter of filing a bit of paperwork and calling it a day. Those that come in illegally would likely be put on a waiting list for years. Entering without U.S. consent is illegal. The moment you enter as such you are committing a crime. Norm, I'm starting to wonder if I'm talking to a very young child...
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Now PlayDoh, if you care to look at the aggregate statistics, you will find that anglos do not make up an inordinate amount of sex offender as compared to their relative population." . Did you actually check any statistics? You sure didn't give any clues about the source of whatever statistics you relied on to make your claim there. Granted, Play-Doh didn't provide any links so that we can easily verify his factual claim (that 95% of sex offenders in "apple country" are Caucaisians) without googling up the facts for ourselves, but at least he's making a claim to checking a source of statistics, which is more than you've done here. If his number (95%) is in fact correct, then Caucasians in "apple country" DO commit "an inordinate amount" of sex crimes unless 95% or more of the population is Caucasian. . .
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"The point is not discrimination...the point is securing the borders and making people held accountable for coming here illegally" .
I agree 100%. Norm only wants to open the southern border while discriminating against the rest of the world. The US needs to treat all illegals equally. Either enforce the laws on EVERYONE or open ALL the borders allowing EVERYONE, be it by land or sea to come and stay to better themselves. Don't turn back the boat after boat of people from across the Pacific. Let ALL who wants to come, come and stay.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Now Norm, your post about paperwork is idiotic. It's actually fairly difficult to get into the United States, believe it or not. It's not a simple paperwork exercise. It's not a matter of filing a bit of paperwork and calling it a day. Those that come in illegally would likely be put on a waiting list for years" . What's idiotic is your claim here that when there's a lot of paperwork that takes a long time to process, its somehow not paperwork anymore. I'm well aware of the extreme difficulty involved in obtaining permission to work in the US; that's precisely why I'm saying that the process needs to be improved. . "The moment you enter as such you are committing a crime." . Wrong again. Entering the country without the required paperwork is a civil offense, not a crime. Big difference. Again, its just like building a house without a permit. . "Norm, I'm starting to wonder if I'm talking to a very young child..." . Good point. Why don't you try calling me a "poopy-head" next? .
Marshall 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
PlayDoh, Well said, but, of course, if a person wants to make excuses for being racist, he/she isn't going to read what you say and get it.
MAD GSXR- Same old, same old. We've seen this before and yeah, the reason why Arizona's law is being challenged this month is because there isn't any real way of knowing who is illegal and who isn't without checking for ID. Just another excuse to be racist. All kinds of links have been provided by various people on here that show that illegal immigrants give more to our economy than they ever get back, but no matter what proof is given, it's ignored by those who don't want to believe it.
By the way, Jay, you never answered my question about how you know the legal status of gang bangers and Latino criminals. Do you have inside knowledge, which is hard to believe because in our state their immigration status isn't checked until they are convicted of a crime?
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"It's not in the best interests of society, Norm...only the in the best interests of a few farm and orchard owners." . Right, because once those billions of dollars worth of fruit are sold each year, the packers and orchardists burn all that money in giant bonfires rather than circulating it locally by using it to buy other products and services, thus creating more local jobs. .
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Wrong, Norm. Entering the country illegally is not a civil offense, it is a criminal offense.
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Here you go, Norm:
Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:
Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or
Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;
has committed a federal crime.
And Norm, it's about both sides of the equation. The costs exceed the benefits w/ regard to illegal aliens. Add the fact that they commit an inordinate amount of crimes, and NO thank you.
As for your question Marshall, we need to start by securing the border. Secondly, once the border is secured, and if someone re-enters after deportation, it is a felony...the United States needs to start enforcing that as well. Finally, if bogus ss#'s are being used and sent in, that individual needs to be convicted of identity theft, then deported. I don't support anything other than what I just listed above...no random stops, etc. that might result in racial profiling.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Congratulations, Jay: you're right here and I was wrong (ie. 8 USC 1325). Crossing the border without permission is classified as a crime; I was confusing this with the fact that being in the country without permission is a civil offense - for example, somebody who crossed the border with permission and then overstayed their visa. . "James Sensenbrenner, JD, U.S. Representative (R-WI), in a Dec. 16, 2005 statement on the House of Representatives floor regarding his proposed bill H.R. 4437, argued: "...under current law, illegal entry into the United States makes an alien subject to a Federal criminal misdemeanor with a maximum penalty of 6 months in prison. However, unlawful presence itself, such as by overstaying a visa, is not a criminal offense..." http://immigration.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000781 .
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"The costs exceed the benefits w/ regard to illegal aliens." . Not according to the chair of Pres. Bush's Council of Economic advisors. He said: "Our review of economic research finds immigrants not only help fuel the Nation's economic growth, but also have an overall positive effect on the income of native-born workers." http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/cea/cea_immigration_062007.html . If you want to better understand how this works, read here (for explanation of effects on native workers): http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=5779&page;=135 .
Marshall 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Jay, You didn't answer my question. The question is "How are you so certain that those gang bangers and drive-by shooters are illegal immigrants rather than Latinos who are US citizens or legal residents"? There is no way of knowing whether these people are illegal or not, so by you assuming that they have to be illegal because they are Latino is one assumption too many. You are the one saying that your premises are correct. I'm saying that you may know that there are more illegal immigrants than there were in the past and that many criminals are illegal immigrants but that doesn't mean that the ones involved in gang activity are illegal immigrants. As PlayDoh tried to point out, there is no way of knowing that one Latino is illegal why the next one is legal so you end up suspecting all Latinos and assuming that those who commit crimes are the illegal immigrants. There are good and bad in every population but I agree that we need to have stricter border control in order to keep out the criminal elements. Of course we don't want them here. But, by the same token, we need immigrants to keep our country fresh and we need to have a reasonable quota that allows a chance for people to come here from Mexico if they fulfill the necessary requirements. As it stands now, there is virtually no way of coming legally so everyone tries to come since our borders are porous. So, I believe we tighten the borders, keep out the criminals, up the quota for legal immigration and make certain requirements that a potential immigrant has to satisfy in order to be able to come.
I have to say, though, that a lot of the arguments people use against illegal immigrants, such as; they collect welfare, etc... are just not true or that they don't contribute to our economy on a local level as well as nationwide, are just not valid reasons. But, if you want to argue about how we need to keep out criminals, I agree wholeheartedly. This is a serious problem, just don't judge all Latino immigrants, legal and otherwise based on the criminals that are sneaking across the border.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I guess its about time to debunk the criminality claims: . "Why are Immigrants' Incarceration Rates so Low? Evidence on Selective Immigration, Deterrence, and Deportation . Kristin F. Butcher, Anne Morrison Piehl NBER Working Paper No. 13229 Issued in July 2007 . The perception that immigration adversely affects crime rates led to legislation in the 1990s that particularly increased punishment of criminal aliens. In fact, immigrants have much lower institutionalization (incarceration) rates than the native born - on the order of one-fifth the rate of natives. More recently arrived immigrants have the lowest relative incarceration rates, and this difference increased from 1980 to 2000." http://www.nber.org/papers/w13229#navDiv=6 . unfortunately, unless you've got accesses to academic databases, you probably can't find more from this paper than the abstract I pasted above. .
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
""Why are Immigrants' Incarceration Rates so Low? Evidence on Selective Immigration, Deterrence, and Deportation" Here is the issue Norm. YOU always mix immigration into the same cake mix.
You always site studies on immigration but never anything on illegal immigration. Your studies and papers are worthless, as they do not address the illegal issue alone by not including the legal immigrant. How many illegals are here in this Country? That is the minimum number of crimes that have been committed by illegal immigrants.
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
This will probably be my last post, as I don't believe we are going anywhere with this. Marshall, I know that many of them are illegal because the Wentachee World has suggested this when certain individuals are charged for gang-related offenses. I also know that almost all the gang-related activities that have taken place in Wenatchee are from latinos, and this was not the case 20-years ago...period! How would you like it if you had a wonderful community you called home, and then it changed because a certain demographic brought in gangs. I'm not suggesting that most latinos are gang bangers, but that a certain population are, and have ruined the sense of security I once had. However, I have many friends that are latino, and generally like latinos as a whole. I am only suggesting that we secure our borders and deport those illegally here (not through Arizona-like measures, as that could lend itself to discrimination) by charging those who use fake ss#'s (which is a felony in and of itself - identity theft) and verifying ss#'s through a database.
Norm, I stand by the fact that illegals are four times as likely to commit crimes than those that are legally here. I'm not suggesting anything regarding immigrants that are legally here as they have just as many right as I do.
artmann 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Note at the bottom of the article. The $113 billion cost does not even factor in the Revenue growth or ECONOMY growth multipliers on lost Revenue. . (Washington, D.C July 6, 2010) A new study released today by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) estimates that illegal immigration now costs federal and local taxpayers $113 billion a year. The report, The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on U.S. Taxpayers, is the most comprehensive analysis of how much the estimated 13 million illegal aliens and their U.S.-born children cost federal, state and local governments.
The cost estimates are based on an extensive analysis of federal, state and local spending data. The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on U.S. Taxpayers examines dozens of government programs that are available to illegal aliens and their U.S.-born children, both legally and fraudulently. The report provides detailed analysis of the impact of illegal immigration on education, health care, law enforcement and justice, public assistance, and other government programs.
The report also accounts for taxes paid by illegal aliens about $13 billion a year, resulting in a net cost to taxpayers of about $100 billion. However, the study notes that government at all levels would likely have realized significantly greater revenues if jobs held by illegal aliens had been filled by legal U.S. residents instead. http://www.fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id;=23198&security;=1601&news;_iv_ctrl=1741
JohnDoe 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
People must be blind if they cannot see the negative effect illegal immigration has on communities. One look at Yakima proves the point. They have murders on a regular basis, car thefts, many residential neighborhoods rival third world countries for filth and grafitti. Certain segments of Wenatchee are not too far off from that now. If the Latino community wishes to be treated with respect, they should clean up their bad apples whether they are legal or illegal. Why are there no volunteers from that community to assist with at risk youths, for example? I volunteer every week to help Latino children but I have seen nobody in the 9 years I've been doing this from the Latino community. Lots of white folks though - but we don't have the same impact. If Latinos wish to stop the racism, they need to do a better job participating in fixing the problems that exist. Pretending there are no problems, Norm, won't solve anything and will only make things worse.
RochelleReyes 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Isn't this blog provided for opinions on a topic? I don't believe it was intended to attack each other. Immigration is a sensitive subject. The publicity on the Arizona Law is worsening opinions. I, as a person and community member, always attempt to help others, be respectful and courteous to others; even if they are racist, rude, inconsiderate, or just plain ignorant. It does me no good as a Latina to give others a reason to talk badly about my culture.
-Corinthians 13- (my favorite)
Mom 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Rochelle, I just want to say that I remember you and am proud of you for speaking up as you are for a more or less silent group of people. You make a great deal of sense and I wish others were as kind as you are.
janetwain 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Maybe you've heard, you don't pitch your children out the window to make room for the strangers at your door.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Well, you obviously haven't heard this, Alice: . "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." .
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Matthew 25: 34-46...It's a good passage.
RochelleReyes 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
After more than two hundred comments on this blog alone, no one has learned anything. So being that this isn't going anywhere, my I suggest that everyone just STOP!? Please and Thank you!
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Tell us Rochelle Reyes what we should have leaned. Should we have learned that?
That a Country that doesn’t enforce its own laws or selectively enforce its laws soon becomes a Country of chaos?
That a Country that doesn’t secure ALL of its borders will soon rot and die from within?
That a Country that turns it’s back on other Countries poor but allows a certain group to come freely is guilty of discrimination? (FYI there is a few Lees and Changs out there that might be illegal. It just easier to stop them due to the choke points that they have to use entering the Country)
That greedy employers would rather use “cheap illegal slave labor” rather than help their fellow Countrymen?
Just what should we have learned?
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
We have learned that bigotry is alive and well in the Wenatchee Valley, that many people would rather blame their economic troubles on the hardworking poor than actually follow the money and see the massive redistribution of wealth from the poor, middle class, and moderately wealthy to the extremely wealthy that has been taking place since the time of Reagan. .
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Gee Norm, I thought you didn't live in the valley anymore. So, I guess bigotry is also behind your keyboard as you only see those from the south being able to come here free of obstacles while refusing the rest of the world’s poor population from coming. You really are a very uncompassionate person Norm.
You see Norm; I don’t blame the economic troubles on only the poor. We all contributed to it to some degree. However, if we are going to open our borders to the poor, we had better open to all the poor. Not just a select few that you have lived with.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"You really are a very uncompassionate person Norm." . You're certainly entitled to express your opinions regarding my character, but it doesn't hurt my feelings if you find my character lacking. Also, I have no interest in changing your opinion about me, so I can't be bothered to defend myself.
. Again, I'm interested in advocating morality and human decency, not in convincing you or anybody else like me. .
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
EDIT: the above should read "...you or anybody else to like me."
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Again, I'm interested in advocating morality and human decency"
So, why is it you only want to eliminate one border, the southern border but not all borders? There are people who are a lot worse off in the world than those south of our border. If you let one group, you must let all groups come including Norwegians, if they wish to come.
RochelleReyes 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Thank you Norm. Morality and decency is important. If I must explain what should have been learned, it's because the student has failed to take into account the given information and turn it into something that is not based on a personal opinion. I prefer to continue my day focusing on more personal important matters. -Rest In Peace Grandma-
JohnDoe 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm, when you quote the bible, does that give you a moral authority to speak for God? Shall I quote, "thou shall not steal, thou shall not bear false witness" to illegal immigrants? I don't think you would appreciate that so don't expect us to appreciate you cloaking your view with irrelevent religious notions. You can use religion to argue both sides of just about any topic - look where that has gotten the world. This is not a religious discussion so leave religion out of it. If you want a debate about merits or lack thereof of religion, start a new thread.
But if you truly believe we should grant amnesty to illegal Mexican immigrants, why stop there? Why not allow Africans, Asians, Indians and all other peoples to come here? Answer: because our wages and social services would be sink under the weight until we became a third world country.
John Stossel failed to recognize that point. If the market were allowed to figure out who could come and who could go, our standard of living would drop precipitously. The reason is because billions would still come even if our standard dropped significantly because even a decimated American economy would be better than much of the world. Sorry to say it, but the truth is we have to control immigration to protect our quality of life. It's too bad some other nations haven't figured out how to make their systems work but that is not our fault. Our forefathers built America strong to make it what it is today and would roll over in their graves if they knew your plans, Norm, to just hand it away. You think the country is too strong to collapse? The Depression wasn't too long ago, Norm, and we're closer now than we have been in years thanks to bank policies by Chris Dodd and Barney Frank. Fools fail to learn from history.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"1. Norm, when you quote the bible, does that give you a moral authority to speak for God? 2. Shall I quote, "thou shall not steal, thou shall not bear false witness" to illegal immigrants? 3. I don't think you would appreciate that so don't expect us to appreciate you cloaking your view with irrelevent religious notions. 4. This is not a religious discussion so leave religion out of it. If you want a debate about merits or lack thereof of religion, start a new thread." . 1. Of course not; that's an absurd suggestion. 2. Go ahead. Your assumption that all illegal immigrants are thieves is clearly erroneous. 3. I'm cloaking nothing here. The Bible speaks for itself, as does Jesus, whose words I quoted.
4. You can give me as many orders as you like, but they will not influence my actions in any way. . "But if you truly believe we should grant amnesty to illegal Mexican immigrants, why stop there? Why not allow Africans, Asians, Indians and all other peoples to come here?" . Mexico is our neighbor; the immigrants among us are also our neighbors. Most of them work harder for less money than we native-born do; we should show them respect and gratitude for their contributions, not demonize them and blame them for our troubles. We should also help poor people in other countries, but bringing them all here is clearly not a viable solution. Bill Gates, Jeffrey Sachs, and many others have done some really outstanding and effective work toward that end. . "If the market were allowed to figure out who could come and who could go, our standard of living would drop precipitously." . So you oppose the free market. You're probably not aware of the sharp drop in immigration that has already occurred since this latest recession began. CBC News:
"An Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development report Monday said that 4.4 million people migrated into the group's 31 member countries in 2008. That's a six per cent drop from the previous year. Immigration into OECD countries increased by an average of 11 per cent per year from 2003 through 2007. Preliminary data suggests the number of migrants dropped again in 2009, the group said in its annual migration survey. The group blamed a decreasing demand for labour for the drop. The decreasing immigration trend line will need to be reversed, the group warned, if the labour needs of an aging population in the developed world are to be met." http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2010/07/12/oecd-immigration-recession.html .
JohnDoe 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
When you quote the bible, Norm, you are attempting to bring his opinion into the discussion - ie claiming the moral authority of God. Is it erroneous that illegal immigrants routinely steal social security numbers and claim to be who they are not? Cloaking was perhaps the wrong word, I should have used wrapping your arguements in the Bible. Its an old trick for claiming moral authority. The problem is, the Bible can be interpreted in many ways for purposes good and bad and you have to assume the audience you are arguing with believes in your God for it to have merit. I am not ordering you to stop speaking about Religion, but I am suggesting the topic is immigration and religious arguments are not useful.
Just because Mexico is in close proximity to the US does not give them any more right to our riches than any other country. Where in the constitution does it say our Bill of Rights is extended to our neighbor to the South, but the rest of the world can go to hell.
Wow, a 6 % drop in immigration? Well too bad that 6 % was comprised of people actually coming for work. How many more came for other purposes? Social Service programs will tell you that they are inundated with people of Mexican origin. Whether or not they are currently legal, many do come to take advantage of social service. All it takes is one baby born in the US and they are on the fast track to being here legally with all the benefits of our Social Security and other social programs. A friend works at a Social Security branch and tells me that the percentage of their recipients that are Spanish speaking is 2 - 3 times the population percentage.
You are correct that most Mexican immigrants come to work. The fact is, though, that a large number also come to take advantage of our social welfare systems. Until we can find a way to fix this problem, we need to end illegal immigration.
Marshall 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
You are wrong. Because any illegal immigrant has a baby here does not put them on the fast track to be here legally. It only gives their child the rights that go with being a US citizen. This anchor baby bit is ridiculous. They deport the parents with or without their children who are what you call anchor babies. There are no benefits to illegal immigrants and they'd be silly to put their identity, legal or not, into the system. Yes, their children may qualify for benefits,but not the parents. And those people your friend sees at the Social Security branch have to be legal whether they are Spanish speaking or not. I get tired of reading the same old argument which doesn't hold water.
We have a problem with illegal immigration but don't make it what it isn't. We have a problem with the criminals who come across the border as well, but why don't we tackle that instead of targeting the people who are here working?
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
" If I must explain what should have been learned, it's because the student has failed to take into account the given information and turn it into something that is not based on a personal opinion."
That is all Norm gives, personal opinions, as his facts include all immigrants, not just illegal immigrants. Thus, his "facts" about illegals are useless and bias.
"There are no benefits to illegal immigrants and they'd be silly to put their identity, legal or not, into the system. Yes, their children may qualify for benefits,but not the parents."
And just how do these babies get these benefits? Do you really think all the $$ go just to the babies and the parents starve?
Marshall 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I can't speak for those people but if I knew I would have to give my name in order to get benefits for my child and I didn't have papers, I wouldn't apply for the benefits.
In all fairness, one way the children get benefits is through the free and reduced lunch program at schools But as has been said before, if a person is using fake ID, they are paying taxes and social security. They don't get that money back as we all do if we qualify. So that money goes to the government and you could say it's a trade-off for what their children get and for emergency medical care. I can't say whether the government comes out ahead or if the immigrant does, but they aren't just taking and taking as some people would like to believe.
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Funny, you have to give that same information to enroll your child in school. It hasn't stopped them from doing that, now has it. What makes you think it would stop them from getting free money? You see, WA State has a "don't ask" policy. They don't ask if you want to get a driver's license. They don't ask if you want to go to school. They don't ask, period. WA State is a sanctuary state. Ask for fake ID's and SS numbers. Why can't they be used? A single parent with children doesn't have to work, do they? If they don't work, how are they paying taxes? Paying sales tax with their Government check?
commonsense 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"But as has been said before, if a person is using fake ID, they are paying taxes and social security. They don't get that money back as we all do if we qualify."
The Fake ID comes from someone, some poor sap who now gets audited by the IRS for income that they haven't claimed, possibly paying for debts accumulated by the criminal, or fighting with creditors because of criminal use of their IDENTITY. You make is seem so innocent, so casual, bordering on positive for almost everyone.
Stealing someones ID is not victimless.
Larry71 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Ive been to Chichen Itza. It was truly sad all of the litter and millions of cig butts lining the walk ways. it really makes you appreciate americas parks.
Larry71 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
sorry the above was for another post..
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"The Fake ID comes from someone, some poor sap who now gets audited by the IRS for income that they haven't claimed, possibly paying for debts accumulated by the criminal, or fighting with creditors because of criminal use of their IDENTITY. You make is seem so innocent, so casual, bordering on positive for almost everyone."
You can only hope it happens to someone like Norm. He may change his opinions. I notice he won't post it after I asked him to several time so the illegals he supports can use it. I know one of those poor saps and know of another which (Norm will jump on his soap box and claim that's hearsay!!!!!!!)
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"When you quote the bible, Norm, you are attempting to bring his opinion into the discussion - ie claiming the moral authority of God." . No, the Bible speaks for itself in very clear terms; the fact that I acknowledge this doesn't mean that I'm claiming to be God's spokesperson. I don't expect people who don't believe in the Bible to be influenced by what It has to say; I quote It for the benefit of those who do. . I'm pointing out that the Wenatchee Valley is not nearly as Christian as it likes to consider itself to be. Show a picture of 2 gay guys eating dinner and many "Christians" are outraged; suggest that some people are and should be treated as less than human and there's not a peep from these same "Christians." .
Minmei 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
The feds are to blame for not enacting the laws they pass and businesses are to blame for providing the employment to these people. I dont begrudge them for coming here, but they should obey the law like the rest of us. Mexico has a very harsh law on illegal immigration that they enforce, yet they have the balls to decry ours.
JohnDoe 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm, you say you aren't claiming the moral authority of God. But then you state, "I'm pointing out that the Wenatchee Valley is not nearly as Christian as it likes to consider itself to be." So, on what authority can you make that statement - who are you to decide who is a good Christian or not? Can you see inside these people's hearts Norm? Sounds like you are channeling God's moral authority again.
I find it interesting how liberals complain that conservatives are judgmental on the one hand while making broad judgments about conservatives on the other.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
So, on what authority can you make that statement - who are you to decide who is a good Christian or not?" . I am a person who has an opinion, just as everybody else does. . "I find it interesting how liberals complain that conservatives are judgmental " . Maybe some do, but you cannot find any instance of me making that complaint here or elsewhere. .
JohnDoe 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm, I'm glad in your high opinion of yourself you feel you have the ability to declare the valley as "not very Christian." You can quote the Bible to try and guilt the population into rolling over on the topic. But don't let me tell you that you are claiming God's higher moral ground - that's going too far, right??
When you claim Wenatchee (conservative) people cannot handle two gays eating dinner together - would that not be judgmental (intolerant) behavior that you are complaining about. (or fill in whatever PC term you'd prefer).
You see Norm, I've noticed you are quick to make broad generalizations attacking others. But when the gaping holes in your arguments are displayed in full view, you simply spin and weave your words to change their interpretation. You don't claim moral authority, you don't complain that conservatives are judgmental, the streets of Mexico are as clean as the wind driven snow. What is the point of debating with you if you cannot be honest with us and maybe even yourself?
RochelleReyes 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Memorial Park tonight from 7pm to 10pm. See you there. Come take a look at those you refer to as illegal. We will have prayer and speakers tonight. Please show some decency and observe. Thank you for your time. Have a great evening.
JohnDoe 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
How about a protest against gang culture? (I'm assuming with the limited information you provided that you are having a protest or vigil about the AZ law). How about volunteering your time to assist with troubled youths in your community? There seems to be lots of energy for organizing protests and cultural celebrations in the Latino community and very little energy for fixing problems. I say this as a volunteer myself for 9 years to help Latino youths. In all those years I have not seen a single Latino person volunteering.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"But don't let me tell you that you are claiming God's higher moral ground - that's going too far, right??" . I'm not sure what you're asking here. You're obviously mistaken, but you're certainly free to express your mistaken opinion. . "would that not be judgmental (intolerant) behavior that you are complaining about. (or fill in whatever PC term you'd prefer)." . I never criticize anybody for being "judgmental" because it is a ridiculous complaint. Everybody judges everything they percieve, all day every day. . "But when the gaping holes in your arguments are displayed in full view, you simply spin and weave your words to change their interpretation." . Nope. When people demonstrate that I have been mistaken, I readily admit it. . "What is the point of debating with you..." . That is a question for you {or anybody else} to answer for yourself; it makes no sense to ask me that question. .
Spirt_Winds 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Who is to Blame for Illegal Immigration? My opinion... The United States Government for not enforcing the laws! Well (some) laws.. Fun example of the word LAW... Ticket for no seat belt....Well your getting it and paying for it!!! Law enforced! Illegal... get a job, pay no taxes (and if you think they do, get a life, I have done MANY tax returns for them) they know to go exempt, stop work at the $$ cut off and get a great EIC check to boot, each year...several big checks per house hold! , get a whole LOT of freebies and even sue the employer whom hired them.
My only desire is.... you come, you work, you pay taxes, your own health ins........., NO freebies!!!!! I think that is where the most anger comes from.... I do not like to pay for their bills, when they have a job and should figure out how to cover EVERY EXPENSE I HAVE TO! Makes the US of A, look a bit STUPID don't ya think? Don't get me wrong, many are great folks, here legally and I welcome that! Gezzz I would be in prison in MX... if I stayed there illegally!!! The weak USA...GO AZ! Laws are laws...fair is fair!!
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Larry71 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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Spirt_Winds 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
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DDD 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Werner you just don't get it! It has nothing to do with compassion or immigration. Liberals like you try to make this into a right wing non compassionate issue. It is now and always has been about being in this country legally! Plain and Simple! Stop trying to turn this into a political issue. No one blames anyone for wanting to come to this country. Yes we pride ourselves as being the best place to live, but please come to this country legally! As others have said, this country has a Guest Worker program. If you want to come into this country to work to better your families life, then do so using this program, and go back home when your term is up like you are supposed to. Better yet, if you want to move to this country, apply for a green card and move here like immigrants have for the past 100 years, and start your path to citizenship! I am all about bettering yourself, but if I robbed a bank under the premise of bettering my families life, isn't that illegal? How can there be a law thats OK to break and one that isn't?
I am not anti-Mexican or anti-immigration. I am anti-illegal alien, whether you are from Mexico, Canada, or Mars! In this age of the war on terrorism, it is unfathomable to believe our government allows people to just flow over our borders and live here illegally. It would be very easy for terrorists to get into this country at this time. Obama and Bush before him, should be ashamed. Unfortunately, our president will not do anything about this, in fears of losing the Hispanic vote.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"I just think they can get here legally, as we would have to in their country." . Just because you think so doesn't make it so. Depending on when you arrive, it takes about 30 minutes for a US citizen to legally enter Mexico, most of that standing in line. You fill out one form and talk to immigration for about 1 minute, then usually walk right through customs if you have nothing to declare. .
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"It is now and always has been about being in this country legally! Plain and Simple! Stop trying to turn this into a political issue." . Here in the US, we use a political process to write our laws. . "I am all about bettering yourself, but if I robbed a bank under the premise of bettering my families life, isn't that illegal?" . Yes, its called stealing. Working for a wage is called working. There's a big difference. If you got yourself a job under the premise of bettering your family's lives, that would not be illegal. . "How can there be a law thats OK to break and one that isn't?" . Gosh, that's a tough one. You're saying here that every law ever passed by any government in history is absolutely just and fair. How can I ever refute such an argument? . "As others have said, this country has a Guest Worker program. If you want to come into this country to work to better your families life, then do so using this program, and go back home when your term is up like you are supposed to. Better yet, if you want to move to this country, apply for a green card and move here like immigrants have for the past 100 years, and start your path to citizenship." . Yes, its just that easy. They could work legally if they wanted to, but they just don't want to. They prefer to be marginalized, harassed, and demonized, with no recourse to the law when their rights are violated. Go figure. .
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Wasn't it John Stossel's article that said it takes a Mexican immigrant with a high school diploma about 131 years to legally enter the U.S. in order to legally work here in this country? Americans that are all for legal immigration conveniently forget that 131 years part or maybe they're just plain uninformed.
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Shows you how dumb or inaccurate the article is. My friend from Mexico is 26. He came here legally and earned his citizenship a couple years ago. No real education and he works in the orchards. I guess his great, great grand parents must have started the process for him, 105 years ago. .
I ready to open the borders and let 50 million hard working Chinese in.
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
John Stossel doesn't write dumb articles, but dumb posts abound.
JohnDoe 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Hey Norm,
It seems your arguments depend on what your definition of "is" is.
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"John Stossel doesn't write dumb articles, but dumb posts abound."
"Wasn't it John Stossel's article that said it takes a Mexican immigrant with a high school diploma about 131 years to legally enter the U.S. in order to legally work here in this country?"
Thanks for providing two prime examples of dumb posts!
Maybe John S was talking about it would take 131 years for ALL Mexican immigrants with a high school diploma to legally enter the U.S. My 26 year old friend got his but he did it the right way and worked hard in the evenings studying for the test. It can be done but it just isn't handed to them on a silver platter.
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I don't know anything about "your friend", but I do know that John Stossel has done investigative reports for years and he has a pretty darned good reputation for not sensationalizing.
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Here is what he really said:
"A Mexican with a high school diploma must wait a theoretical 131 years!"
Theoretical = hypothetical = guess = NOT FACT (per Norm). By the way Mav, any problems finding workers to pick your chop?
Stephaniee91 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
No one is to blame. people come here for a better life, my parents personally came here from mexico, that doesnt mean theyre criminals. people just talk and are racist, if your not thats cool but if you are, i would like to see you out there in the fields working your a** off. and see how hard people work to put food on the table, some people werent fortunate enough to have money or be born in the united states. And i think its stupid how people refer to 'illegal immigrants'' right away to mexicans, when theres other races out there. Thats personally my opinion.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Theoretical = hypothetical = guess = NOT FACT (per Norm)." . I'm pretty sure Stossel's piece said something to the effect of "on average", which would indicate a statistical result that is neither theoretical nor hypothetical, nor does it deny the existence of outliers - for example, anecdotal evidence of a friend who did it in less than 131 years. .
DDD 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
DDD said "It is now and always has been about being in this country legally! Plain and Simple! Stop trying to turn this into a political issue."
Norm said: Here in the US, we use a political process to write our laws.
Duh? What does that have to do with being in the country illegally?
DDD said: "I am all about bettering yourself, but if I robbed a bank under the premise of bettering my families life, isn't that illegal?"
Norm said: Yes, its called stealing. Working for a wage is called working. There's a big difference. If you got yourself a job under the premise of bettering your family's lives, that would not be illegal.
It would not be illegal to obtain a job under false premise? What dream world do you live in? Illegal is illegal! There is no gray area in the law. What would you say to all the immigrants that have come to this country legally? Were they stupid or wrong to do so? Why can't these illegal Mexicans do the same?
DDD said: "How can there be a law thats OK to break and one that isn't?"
Norm said: Gosh, that's a tough one. You're saying here that every law ever passed by any government in history is absolutely just and fair. How can I ever refute such an argument?
No there are stupid laws, but until that law is repealed it is still a law whether we like it or not. I don't approve of many laws but I obey them regardless. How could it possibly be OK to say its fine to follow some laws but not all?
DDD said: "As others have said, this country has a Guest Worker program. If you want to come into this country to work to better your families life, then do so using this program, and go back home when your term is up like you are supposed to. Better yet, if you want to move to this country, apply for a green card and move here like immigrants have for the past 100 years, and start your path to citizenship."
Norm said: Yes, its just that easy. They could work legally if they wanted to, but they just don't want to. They prefer to be marginalized, harassed, and demonized, with no recourse to the law when their rights are violated. Go figure.
Thats exactly the point. They could work legally if they wanted to, but they choose not to. Its not like they don't know they are here illegally. Everyone has a choice to follow or break the law. Maybe the paperwork process to get into this country needs to be improved, but until
Flamebike 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Jay Jay---All very good and VALID points.
Now, if we could only get the Fed's to secure the borders.
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"I'm pretty sure Stossel's piece said something to the effect of "on average",'
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go look it up, Norm, before making another foolish guess.
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"anecdotal evidence of a friend who did it in less than 131 years" I could name his name but that would not be fair to him. Call it heresy if you like but it is true. Close your eyes Norm and fade back into your dreamland!
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
DDD: You said "Don't make this a political issue" I pointed out that it is an inherently political issue. What don't you get about that? "It would not be illegal to obtain a job under false premise? What dream world do you live in? Illegal is illegal! There is no gray area in the law." . Jaywalking is illegal. Murder is illegal. There is a significant difference between these two illegal acts. . "Why can't these illegal Mexicans do the same?" . Because of the present law. The one that's wrong. If we change the law, then they can do the same. . "They could work legally if they wanted to, but they choose not to." . I'm sure that you sincerely believe this, but that doesn't make it true. If you think that there ought to be a way for them to work here legally, then you agree with me. .
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"The best way to stop using so much gasoline is to deport 15million illegal immigrants!
That would be 15 million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down..... " . Wow. Just, wow. You actually believe that that makes sense, don't you? .
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go look it up, Norm, before making another foolish guess." . That's not how it works, Smith. An indication of uncertainty (like "I'm pretty sure that...) requires no citation. A statement of fact, like yours here, requires a link to a primary source, in this case the Stossel article in question. . "I could name his name but that would not be fair to him." . You utterly failed to understand the post you replied to. Supplying a name doesn't change evidence from anecdotal to non-anecdotal. Perhaps you are thinking of the word "anonymous", which has an entirely different meaning from the word anecdotal. Look it up. . "Call it heresy if you like but it is true" . Where I said "nor does it deny the existence of outliers", I was acknowledging that the story of your "friend" or a similar story could easily be true. .
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/2010/07/21/immigrants_--_good_or_bad/page/full .
Just for you Norm, one of a dozen or so links I could provide and you are still WRONG!!! .
"anecdotal evidence of a friend who did it in less than 131 years." .
Anecdotal = Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy. .
You really need to stay awake in class Norm. I could name him so you could call him but I would never do that in a public blog. Kind of like you won't give your SS number for all you illegal friends to use. .
Norm, the law is the law and the majority does not feel the same as you. So, hood luck trying to change it. But, say you do and let the world population enter at will. Better start learning Chinese.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I can speak Mandarin, Smith. You need to learn to understand English. It's not so much that you're wrong, its that you don't even understand what's being said. .
DDD 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm Norm Norm.... I am not sure whats in that KoolAid you have been drinking but here goes anyway.
Yes Jaywalking is illegal, Murder is illegal. So is sneaking into this country without proper documentation. Once again, you don't get to pick and choose which laws you obey. Its what makes us a civilized nation. Since you don't agree, maybe you should try sneaking into Mexico and go and get yourself a job. My guess is it would be the last time anyone saw or heard from you.
You complain that the law that makes it illegal for them to be here is wrong. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It isn't for you, me and Jose to decide. If you have a problem with it, talk to your congressman. I might add, other than the 10 million illegals in this country, you are in the minority thinking they have a right to be here.
DDD said: "They could work legally if they wanted to, but they choose not to." . Norm said: I'm sure that you sincerely believe this, but that doesn't make it true. If you think that there ought to be a way for them to work here legally, then you agree with me
Your right, I do sincerely believe that they know they are here illegally, and don't really care. Why are they so special Norm? Why should they be treated any differently than Irish, French, Saudis or Iraqi's? Maybe we should just open up the borders completely and welcome all without documentation as long as they can make it to America. Then you and I and all the actual taxpayers in this country can work until we are 95 trying to pay for all the welfare programs to support them? We would quickly become nothing more than a 3rd world country. Does that sound good to you Norm? If that is what you are wanting, I suggest you move to Mexico as noted above. Seriously, your argument doesn't hold water.
I am not advocating a no immigration policy. Everyone living in this country unless native American, was an immigrant or descended from immigrants at one time. What I am advocating, is LEGAL immigration. No gray area here Norm. Mexicans deserve no more preferential treatment than any other nationality.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Do you really fail to understand why they shouldn't be different?
. "Why are they so special Norm? Why should they be treated any differently than Irish, French, Saudis or Iraqi's?" . If you and the rest of the Klan were blaming all of our economic troubles and whatever else you don't like on these other folks, I'd be defending them as well. As it is, you've mostly decided to demonize Latinos, so they are the ones I defend. . "Then you and I and all the actual taxpayers in this country can work until we are 95 trying to pay for all the welfare programs to support them?" . You've got it backwards. You're not paying thier way: They're paying yours. I've already explained this to you several times. .
artmann 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Maybe because your explanations have nothing to do with reality......(Washington, D.C July 6, 2010) A new study released today by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) estimates that illegal immigration now costs federal and local taxpayers $113 billion a year. The report, The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on U.S. Taxpayers, is the most comprehensive analysis of how much the estimated 13 million illegal aliens and their U.S.-born children cost federal, state and local governments.
Mom 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
They is so annoying. They can't come here legally. The laws exclude Mexicans from legal immigration as Tracy Warner explained in his editorial. He researched and cited his sources so please respect his research. Yes, some people do get lucky and they do qualify. I have looked into this extensively, including the immigration laws, and I don't know why he qualified, but lucky for him, he did. That's great, but it would be nice if a few others were able to come here legally and work.
A couple of misperceptions here: 1) The Mexican goverrnment does have strict immigration laws, but they don't enforce them. I have been encouraged to work there teaching English by many Mexicans when I've been there, as they know of many Americans who are doing the same thing. 2) In order to qualify to come here from Mexico, a person must have an immediate family member who is a resident alien and who will sponsor them by proving that they have enough money to take care of that person without being a burden on the government for a period of seven years, and the immigrant must be less than 18 years of age. If older and a parent, child or sibling, they may qualify if they have a an immediate family member who is a US citizen. I tried to sponsor a couple of people and was willing to swear that I would support them if they couldn't provide for themselves, but I couldn't be the sponsor since I was not an immediate relative. They definitely view this as a privilege and one that they would give anything to be able to qualify for. I know this because I taught adults from all countries ESL at WVC for many years.
And, yes, they are here illegally, but if you liken that to someone who kills, steals or rapes, you have your priorities confused. As Norm has said, they pay into our taxes and SS, while never getting any back. All of these "I know someone who works somewhere, and he says the illegals come in and get welfare, etc..." are not documented and the person who is saying it has no way of knowing whether these people are legal or not.
And, back to the argument that we don't allow people from other countries to do the same thing, well, we don't allow them to any more than we allow Mexicans to do it. The fact is the Mexicans are right next door and many of these people you think are Mexicans, are actually Guatemalans or El Salvadorians so it's much easier for them to slip across the border than Asians, for example.
We aren't allowing anything, we just need to fix our laws and make some legal immigration possible and tighten our borders to criminals and the like. No one here wants criminals coming from Mexico or anywhere else and they do come as it stands now.
RochelleReyes 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
-Thank you Mom (Susan Feil) for your comment. :D -Buenos dias Wenatchee. Oremos...
Mom 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
MADGSXR, Many of the people making demands for ethnic studies and Spanish language classes are not the immigrants, themselves, but misguided Americans who think they are helping, somehow. I teach Spanish as an elective and English as a Second Language. I absolutely guarantee you that the immigrants want to learn English more than anything. It's a difficult language and takes a lot of time to really be fluent. But, when I taught for the college I always had too many students and not enough of me to go around because when someone heard of English classes, everyone wanted to come. They also came after a hard day of working in orchards, all cleaned up and ready to study. Not all of the illegal immigrants are like that and that's why I advocate for improved border controls to keep out those who don't want to be a part of America, the brave.
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
You should note that the government puts quotas on unskilled workers so that the government ensures that those entering the country do not end up as a net burden on the economy. Notice I said, "net burden." There are some economic benefits of the recent wave of illegal immigrants, but it is a net burden in my book - and also in the book of the economists who worked diligently to put appropriate quotas in place to protects those legally here. Assimilation costs are huge, and medical, education, housing subsidies, etc, etc, are not recouped by the minimal amount paid for in SS taxes. Suggesting that we just increase the quotas so that virtually anyone down South can immigrate up North ignores the fact that the quotas have been set to ensure that unskilled workers don't become a drain on society.
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Further note that I tried to live and work in GB and France for a time several years back, and they likewise have strict quotas. Although I am well educated, I was not in a "high demand" field (engineering or medical) and was not allowed entry. They have these quotas to protect the interests of their citizens. Why should we be any different???
Mom 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Jay, I'm not suggesting we have unlimited quotas for those from down south, just that we make it possible for some people to immigrate legally, more than now are allowed to. I think you'll find that the quota for unskilled laborers is higher from GB and France than from Mexico, while there is much more demand from Mexico and south. I, too, know of someone who immigrated legally from Chile where it isn't so difficult, but I can tell you that he was a teacher and had no problem getting a visa to live here but I also know of teachers from Mexico who can't get one.
Many of the people who come from Mexico who you take for unskilled laborers, are not unskilled. They have a profession but couldn't support their families in Mexico or Guatemala so they come here and work in the fields and orchards. Maybe they shouldn't come, but I would too if I could think of no other way to support my family.
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Lastly, as per criminal offenses: Jaywalking is not a criminal offense, but an infraction. Illegally crossing the border is a criminal offense. Obviously, it's not akin to murder, rape, etc. However, it should be noted that re-entering after being deported (which is fairly common) is a serious felony.
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Gee Messer (what I call the dog next door because of what he does all the time), can't admit you are WRONG even with the link. Glad you learned another language while on your church mission.
It's hard to understand someone who twists his replies to say something irrelevant rather than address the real issue because he wants an answer that supports his opinion rather than facts.
Funny thing is while the whole world is learning English as a second language so they can communicate with us, we are learning Latino language. English is becoming the primary language of the world and rather learning more important thing such as math, the sciences, etc, we waste time and money learning an obsolete language.
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Thanks Susan - I would suggest that we set quotas that adequately consider all the facets of the U.S. economy, and balance that number appropriately. I assume that's what the economists have done, but - if, in fact, they have errored on the low side - I would agree that we need to accomodate a greater number of immigrants to meet the new target. I think most U.S. citizens want a working system (whatever that might look like), but right now it's broken - I think most of us can agree to that.
Mom 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Yes, Jay, I agree with you on all points. It first has to work for us. Whatever immigration policy we come up with, it needs to address what needs we have as a society, the fact that we already have many people here who do have ties and family who know no other country but this one, and how we keep out the criminals who do come here where their record isn't known.
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Susan - I know hate it when I reply to your post but please hear me out. The reason there are quotes set on who can come here is to protect the US Citizens already here. With unemployment hanging around 10%, do we really need more people coming in? I know a bunch on here will get on their soap box and start preaching about doing the jobs that US Citizen won't and to some extend, that may be true. But let look at your example above, " I, too, know of someone who immigrated legally from Chile where it isn't so difficult, but I can tell you that he was a teacher and had no problem getting a visa to live here but I also know of teachers from Mexico who can't get one."
I too know one teacher that was laid off due to budget cuts and one recent grad that can't find a teaching job. Is it right to import teachers from another country when we don't have jobs for the US Citizen teachers we currently have? Should the unemployed framer or sheetrock installer stay unemployed because we can import workers from another Country that will do the work for a third the cost? Think about it.
As for people harvesting crops, I did not hear one peep there was a shortage yet thousands still come. Are they displacing the US worker because they work for minimum wage that may be 5 times plus what they make where they come from but a third of what the US worker made. Is that what we really want out Country to come to, a nation of minimum wage worker working for Corporate giants making 40 million a year. You may think you are safe because you have a teacher's union but if thing keep going down hill, that union may go the way of the dinosaur.
It would be great if the US could take in anyone who wanted to come. But frankly, we can and I believe you know that.
DDD 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm... "If you and the rest of the Klan were blaming all of our economic troubles and whatever else you don't like on these other folks, I'd be defending them as well. As it is, you've mostly decided to demonize Latinos, so they are the ones I defend."
Klan? Are you insinuating now that I am a member of the KKK? So now because I am against ILLEGAL immigration, you assume I am a racist also? Did you fall off your bike and hit your head?
Its liberal attitudes like yours Norm that have gotten this country into the mess it is in now. Lets all get together and hold hands and protest the injustice of Americans living in this beautiful country, and being too selfish to share with those who have already turned their land into a 3rd world country. Group Hug!
What a crock. Call me selfish I guess.
Excuse me. I may be late for my "Klan" meeting..
Mom 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
John, I'm not trying to make the case for anyone coming here and taking a job away from an American, nor am I going to debate whether or not they take jobs that no American wants. That's been discussed rather thoroughly. What i was just trying to do is point out that a teacher from Chile was able to get a visa to come here and teach, while several from Mexico were not. My point is that there is a different quota depending on which country is involved. That's the only point I'm making.
Larry71 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
thats how they get their votes jayjay. they strike fear into the latino community. They tell them all who is against them hate them. And ill bet half of the people defending them have never even sat down and had a beer with an illiegal. or had them over for dinner.
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"What i was just trying to do is point out that a teacher from Chile was able to get a visa to come here and teach, while several from Mexico were not. My point is that there is a different quota depending on which country is involved. That's the only point I'm making. " Mom, what is the quota for teachers from Chile vs. teachers from Mexico? Could it be the US had already allowed enough teachers from Mexico to have Visa but only one applied from Chile and quota allowed only one from Chile? You see, there may be a whole lot more to the story that is not being told or even that is not known. Are there teachers from Canada or the Netherlands that were also turned down? Again, the system works based on quotas and maybe this needs to be adjusted. But, how do you make it fair to all? Only let in your friends but not mine from France or Japan? Either way, it doesn't give these Mexican teachers the right to sneak under a fence (not saying they did) because they couldn't get a Visa anymore then the thousands of uneducated that do. Do you see what I am talking about?
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
" I would suggest that we set quotas that adequately consider all the facets of the U.S. economy, and balance that number appropriately. I assume that's what the economists have done, but - if, in fact, they have errored on the low side - I would agree that we need to accomodate a greater number of immigrants to meet the new target."
So Jay, with unemployment at around 10%, what should this target be? You really believe it is on the low side? Right now, I would say the target should be ZERO until the US solves its domestic problems, including unemployment.
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Haha, well people smarter than myself should be deciding the quota. Economists work on this to ensure that new entrants do not become a drain, but that there is also a sufficent labor supply, as citizens can be altruistic with their own dime, but shouldn't force others to do likewise. It is my belief that if many illegal immigrants did not come here, we would be paying a premium for some produce and a few other products. However, that would be more than offset by lower taxes as a result of lower education costs, lower medical costs, etc., etc., etc. At any rate, the U.S. has far more unskilled immigrants in the states than would ever have been allowed in through the proper means. As a capitalist nation, yes, certain orchards might fail, and certain farms might go bankrupt. It does, however, create a more efficient economy and less of a welfare state.
The unemployment rate of 10%, John, is a misnomer. There are many able-bodied people in the States right now that are on unemployment and, since they are making more on the govt.'s dime via unemployment checks, there is no incentive to take the jobs available. As long as Obama and Congress extend the unemployment benefits indefinitely, the unemployment rate will be high...why look for a job when you are getting paid to not work?
JustanObserver 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
...I could be wrong though...it's possible that labor in the unskilled fields being performed by illegals has been invaluable, and that it offsets the increased education costs, including all assimmilation costs, medical, housing subsidies, etc. What really needs to happen, is that a group of non-partisan economists needs to analyze this in great depth, set quotas accordingly, and then stringently apply those quotas...anyone that crosses above and beyond that quota is a drain, and therefore they need to be deported. However, that "group" would never happen, as much of what happens is not based on what makes practical sense, but rather, what gets the most votes.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Gee Messer (what I call the dog next door because of what he does all the time), " . Good point. . "can't admit you are WRONG even with the link." . The link showed that the story was precisely as I had remembered it. If you think I was wrong, it is because you failed to understand what Stossel said and/or my reiteration of his points. . "Glad you learned another language while on your church mission." . If you think you're accurately repeating something I've said, you're not: I have never been on a church mission to Taiwan or anywhere else. If its another one of your jokes, like your hilarious commentary on my name, then by all means, proceed. . "Funny thing is while the whole world is learning English as a second language so they can communicate with us, we are learning Latino language. English is becoming the primary language of the world and rather learning more important thing such as math, the sciences, etc, we waste time and money learning an obsolete language." . As I've pointed out many times here, learning additional languages increases the brain's cognitive performance. This improves learning in other areas, such as math, science, etc. .
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm... "If you and the rest of the Klan were blaming all of our economic troubles and whatever else you don't like on these other folks, I'd be defending them as well. As it is, you've mostly decided to demonize Latinos, so they are the ones I defend."
Enough with the misleading and BS race card Norm.If that's the only dog you have in this fight its a very pathetic one.You are a disgrace.Not a soul has been racist in any of this.Just like the BS claim that the tea parties are racist.If you think that tactic is going to work,your wrong.Try again.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"You should note that the government puts quotas on unskilled workers so that the government ensures that those entering the country do not end up as a net burden on the economy." . Historically, that has never been the case. Immigration quotas have not been set on any rational, scientific basis, but in response to popular xenophobia aimed at different groups of people. . "Assimilation costs are huge, and medical, education, housing subsidies, etc, etc, are not recouped by the minimal amount paid for in SS taxes." . You're right, the costs are not entirely balanced by the benefits of SS payments. Your implication that SS payments are the only thing on the positive side of the balance sheet is mistaken, though. . "ignores the fact that the quotas have been set to ensure that unskilled workers don't become a drain on society." . Can you cite any source to verify your assertion that such quotas are now set according to objective, rational criteria (ie. based on the science of economics)? .
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Its liberal attitudes like yours Norm that have gotten this country into the mess it is in now. " . Yeah, we've really got to take back Wall Street from all those darn hippies and not let those tree-huggers start any more wars. . "Excuse me. I may be late for my "Klan" meeting.." . Don't forget your pointy hat. .
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Haha, well people smarter than myself should be deciding the quota." . Centrally planned economies are inefficient, Jay. See: USSR, DPRK, DDR, et al. . "What really needs to happen, is that a group of non-partisan economists needs to analyze this in great depth," . They already have. Here's a link to their book: http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=5779&page;=334 . "set quotas accordingly, and then stringently apply those quotas...anyone that crosses above and beyond that quota is a drain, and therefore they need to be deported." . Back in the US-, back in the US-, back in the USSR...
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
It's the political process coming out of Washington that has gotten us into the mess we're currently in. Only a fool would label it a liberal or conservative mess or a liberal or conservative responsibility for that matter. As long as the voter responds to campaign promises that can never be kept, we will remain in this political morass. People need to stop blaming one party or the other and be willing to recognize that you, the voter, has very little choice in the matter because BOTH parties lie through their teeth and make promises they cannot possibly keep. BOTH parties will continue to grow the size of government. The only party right now that might actually change the direction of this country is the Libertarian Party and they simply do not enjoy enough popular support to prevail, which is why we need them in Washington! Voting Democrat or Republican will only support the Washington continuum and as long as both parties can succeed in pointing the finger of blame at each other and hoodwink the American public into believing that lie, then we will remain stuck right where we currently are for as long as it takes the American voter to wake up! If you read or hear anyone blaming the Republicans, don't believe it! If you hear or read anyone blaming the Democrats, don't believe it! If you want someone to blame, blame yourselves for being played the fool by both parties as they seek to swindle the American voter time and time again! The current Patty Murray ad on television is a prime example of this polarizing BS. Soon Dino Rossi will probably follow suit and for what? The same old same old same old pointing fingers crock! Why can't you simply tell us how you stand on the issues? Forget the finger pointing! Where do you stand on the issues Ms. Murray? Then give us the chance to figure it out for ourselves. We do have a measure of intelligence so give us the the benefit of the doubt. Although I haven't seen anything as of yet from Mr. Rossi, if he pulls the same stunt as Ms. Murray did, then they can both forget my vote.
cmerollin 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I still blame the Zionist regime
Mom 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
John, I have no idea anything about the quotas or whether they are set for teachers vs something else. But, I do know, from being a teacher, that there is no way that a Mexican teacher can come here and work as a teacher illegally. It's just not possible. First off, every law that we have in place for any employee to prove they are a legal resident is required but, in addition to that, a fingerprint state patrol background check is done to keep out felons of any nature. Then, an education degree is only recognized from a university here so if the person had received a BA from a university in Mexico or anywhere else, the credits would have to be analyzed and compared to what's required here, then there would be additional classes that they would need to take. Then before student teaching happens, the background check has to be done. With all these processes needing to take place, the illegal worker wouldn't make it to the Ed. degree, let alone getting a job.
Again, I really don't know anything about how the quotas are determined, it's just my feeling that with the impossibility right now of most all Mexicans getting a visa to come here legally, we will continue to have illegal immigrants. I'm not advocating open borders, just a chance for people to come here legally. I've always felt that it should be based on there being a job waiting for the immigrant, with an affidavit on the part of the prospective employer that he/she will guarantee employment and that it re-evaluated after a set period of time. Also, no government assistance would be possible, which is in the laws right now.
DDD 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Amen Mavulous although I might add that I said Liberal, not Democrat or Republican. I couldn't agree more. The first reasonable post I have heard in a while.
Could you teach Norm? He is a one trick pony although not sure what else I would expect from a newspaper guy.
DDD 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
From Norm: "Don't forget your pointy hat."
Seriously thats all you got?
I might add, for your information Norm, I am a patriot, not a racist. I am a combat veteran of 2 different conflicts and served with all races in the US Marines. I have been all over this world and there is no place like home Norm. I vowed to protect it, even from tree huggers like you.
Now you might understand why I am so passionate about illegal immigration. Then again, you probably still don't get it. You probably spent your draft years in Canada.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Seriously thats all you got?" . That's all I needed to respond to the one sentence I quoted there.
Did you bother to read the rest of what I wrote? If so, did you bother to check on the book I linked - it's recognized by all sides of the immigration debate as The definitive scientific study of the economic effects of immigration. . "Now you might understand why I am so passionate about illegal immigration." . The idea that the net effects of immigrants (with or without their papers in order) on the US are negative is demonstrably false. The only reason for being so passionate about illegal immigration is anti-Latino bigotry. Past or present military service doesn't change these facts. .
DDD 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Did you bother to read the rest of what I wrote If so, did you bother to check on the book I linked - ?"
No I didn't because it was not in reply to my post but to another post. Keep track of your own posts will ya?
"The idea that the net effects of immigrants (with or without their papers in order) on the US are negative is demonstrably false"
This is utter crappola. The fact is, you can find "facts" supporting your stand on the net effect of illegal immigration, and another page that tells the exact opposite story. The internet is full of truth and untruths. For every page you find supporting your stand, I can find one against.
The truths are all around you Norm. Open your eyes. Even your own Newspaper web site has a link to a web site in Spanish! http://informehispano.com/
No wonder the illegals feel welcome here. We are catering to their every need. Don't want to learn English? No Problem! Let us publish a web site or newspaper in Spanish for you! Can't under stand that brochure from a business? No Problem! Lets pay to have that printed in Spanish for you! Your kids don't speak English? No Problem! We will force all of our kids to learn Spanish in elementary school! That way you can all communicate!
When I was in school, we had an option of French, German, Italian and Spanish. Now Spanish is mandatory.
You think any of these things come free?
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"No I didn't because it was not in reply to my post but to another post. Keep track of your own posts will ya?" . I find it both odd and surprising that someone who wants to participate in a discussion would only read the responses to his/her own posts. . "The fact is, you can find "facts" supporting your stand on the net effect of illegal immigration, and another page that tells the exact opposite story. The internet is full of truth and untruths. For every page you find supporting your stand, I can find one against." . The task then becomes to determine which evidence is most reliable and what conclusions it leads to. . "Even your own Newspaper web site has a link to a web site in Spanish! http://informehispano.com/ " . 1. I don't have "my own" newspaper. 2. A newspaper has a link to a site in Spanish. So what? What conclusion are you claiming that this evidence supports? . "No wonder the illegals feel welcome here." . I'm sure they're well aware of the fears, blame, and hatred that people like you feel toward them. .
DDD 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"I find it both odd and surprising that someone who wants to participate in a discussion would only read the responses to his/her own posts."
That discussion was about immigration quotas. I had never participated in the "Quota" discussion. Check my posts.
"The task then becomes to determine which evidence is most reliable and what conclusions it leads to."
Wow! Could it be that we actually agree on something?
I was referring to your employer. The Wenatchee World. The link is just another example of the deterioration of this country. I resent having to "press 1" for English. Since I know you and I will never agree on English as an official language, we will leave that discussion for another board.
"I'm sure they're well aware of the fears, blame, and hatred that people like you feel toward them."
I seriously doubt it. They are still here aren't they?
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"I was referring to your employer. The Wenatchee World." . I worked for the Wenatchee World as a paperboy in the early 80's. Actually, I was an independent contractor who bought papers from them and resold them to my customers. Regardless, I have never worked for them in any other capacity (as an employee, independent contractor, or any other sort of arrangement). . "The link is just another example of the deterioration of this country. I resent having to "press 1" for English." . Poor baby. .
cmerollin 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
blame my wet back
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
As soon as we decide which laws are beneficial and which need to be changed...welcome to democracy. .
Don 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
As if this thread needs to be stirred up any more than it already is, did anyone else read the report released earlier this week about births? In 2008, the most recent year for which data is available, over 8% of all babies born in the US were the offspring of a couple where both the mother and the father were illegal aliens. That was for the entire country. Imagine what it must be like in states that have higher concentrations of illegals.
DDD 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"I worked for the Wenatchee World as a paperboy in the early 80's. Actually, I was an independent contractor who bought papers from them and resold them to my customers. Regardless, I have never worked for them in any other capacity (as an employee, independent contractor, or any other sort of arrangement)."
from the WW LinkedIn:
Dept Executive Title Email @wenatcheeworld.com Verified Exe Wilfred Woods Chairman Avail: Free Trial 509-665-1160 12-28-09
Marcia Avey Parking Enforcement Officer Not Available 12-10-09
Norm Messer Media and President Avail: Free Trial 03-14-10
Hmmm Must be another "Norm Messer". What a coincidence.
DDD 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"US_Patriot (Tommy Johnson) says... Illegal Alien...ILLEGAL! Same as CRIMINAL. Same as, YOU BROKE THE LAW! As soon as we get to decide which laws we have to obey and which ones we can ignore....welcome to anarchy."
Amen. My point exactly.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
hmmm. http://www.quarkbase.com/people/wenatcheeworld.com . So, apparently my title at the Wenatchee World is "Media and President". Not only am I the "media and president" (I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds like at least six figures to me), my name appears first in the list, right before Wilfred Woods. . Wenatchee World: Where's my check? .
robbins 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Here is the actual staff directory for the Wenatchee World: http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/staff/. It's easily found on this very website! Accept no substitutes.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Too late, Jeff: I want my check.
DDD 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Too late, Jeff: I want my check."
LOL.
1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"As soon as we decide which laws are beneficial and which need to be changed...welcome to democracy."
I believe "we" have already decided and if you are speaking of you, you are greatly ou -numbered.
They already have. Here's a link to their book: http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?rec..."
That study was done 15 years ago when unemployment was low and the economy was greatly different. It's old news and way out of date.
Norm 1 year, 6 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"That study was done 15 years ago when unemployment was low and the economy was greatly different. It's old news and way out of date." . You've raised this objection before, and I've rebutted it. Here's step one if you one to establish your claim that it is too old and outdated to be relevant any more: Find one scientific study, from any source, as anti-immigrant as you like - FAIR, Heritage Foundation, etc. - that doesn't cite this study and acknowledge its continuing relevance. .
1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"You've raised this objection before, and I've rebutted it." .
Wrong Norm, I have never raised that objection before. The only thing I pointed out is it combines all immigration. not illegal immigration specifically. I know that may be confusing to you but that's ok.
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Well, perhaps it was one of your clones - I can't be bothered to look it up. Regardless, that issue has been raised here before and I have already shown that serious analysts all sides of the immigration debate continue to cite this study and accept its relevance. . If you wish to discredit the conclusions of this study, I've already explained to you where to begin. Simply saying nuh-uhh, as you essentially did above, is not enough to refute peer-reviewed science. .
1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Is ok for you to say nuh-huh but not anyone else? You do it all the time Norm! Nah-nah Norm!!!
1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Besides Norm, that report only speaks about the hypothetical effects of a future event on taxes and social services due to all immigrants. It does not address the effects on the current population as the offspring of immigrates displaces the current population in the work force. I know it is hard for you to understand but there isn't an unlimited number of jobs in the US and in order to meet the claims in this report, the 2nd generation from the immigrate will have to move into the higher paying workforce, the same place where the current US citizen is having a hard time finding work. They won’t be working the fields. That is why this report is outdated. The jobs just aren't there and as I have explained to you over and over, if you keep increasing the work force, you drive wages down and down and down. Maybe that is your agenda - I don't know. But it appears you want the US to be just like Mexico with an upper class and a poor class.
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Is ok for you to say nuh-huh but not anyone else? " . You can say it all you want, its just not credible evidence - certainly not enough to refute peer-reviewed science. As for me, I don't do that; when I make factual claims, I link to evidence to back up those claims. . "that report only speaks about the hypothetical effects of a future event on taxes and social services due to all immigrants." . What are you trying to say here? What future event are you referring to? . "It does not address the effects on the current population as the offspring of immigrates displaces the current population in the work force." . See, you're just making stuff up here that you think sounds good. The only way to know what the report does and does not address is to read the entire report, and your comments make it very clear that you have not read it. Chapters 4 and 5 address the effects of immigrant labor on jobs and wages. . "I know it is hard for you to understand but there isn't an unlimited number of jobs in the US" . Its not the zero-sum game you seem to think it is. Immigrants are not only producers; they are also consumers. They work, buy, sell, and participate in the economy the same ways that anybody else does. When they buy goods and services, they help to create jobs for the people who produce the goods and services that they buy - again, just like anybody else.
. Its really sad and pathetic that you seem to think that there is some magical quality about not having paperwork that causes everything immigrants do to have harmful effects. . "the 2nd generation from the immigrate will have to move into the higher paying workforce, the same place where the current US citizen is having a hard time finding work. They won’t be working the fields. That is why this report is outdated." . Again, all you're showing here is that you have not read the report you are trying to analyze. If you had read and understood Chapter 7, you wouldn't be making this ridiculous claim. . "But it appears you want the US to be just like Mexico with an upper class and a poor class." . No, I will never vote republican. .
DDD 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Fortunately we can all take comfort in knowing that Norm "The Mess" Messer is on the extreme left of the political spectrum and vastly in the minority. He does not speak for the majority of people in this country. The laws will change soon and there will be a crackdown on illegals.
Well, once Obama and all the liberal Democrats that need the latino vote to stay in office are gone anyway.
Another train of thought is that Norm is actually a card carrying conservative Republican and only spews this BS in this forum to incite the masses. This makes sense as no one could honestly be that liberal.
I get it now. Very clever of you Norm.
DDD 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
From Don Lester post: " In 2008, the most recent year for which data is available, over 8% of all babies born in the US were the offspring of a couple where both the mother and the father were illegal aliens. That was for the entire country. Imagine what it must be like in states that have higher concentrations of illegals."
OMG. Thats a lot of anchor babies.
JustHere 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Everyone is talking as if illegal immigration is the only thing breaking this country. How about gang violence, murderers and everything else out there. EVERYONE has broken the law at one time or another EVERYONE. No one is perfect!! So get it through your heads. Whether you smoked a cigarette before you were 18 or drank a beer before you were 21. You were still breaking the law whether it was by doing some big or something small. So you need to stop being Hypocrites. I agree that something needs to be done to control our borders but whether you like it or not most illegal immigrants are here and very hard working. I think they should all be given the chance to become legal in this country. If they refuse or are denied then they should have to leave. Something should also be done so that any other illegal immigrants may not enter the U.S unless they become legal first. We also need to think about who would do the work they are currently doing if they were not here. As we all know they do a majority of all the GRUNT work that we don't do ourselves. Another important point to be brought up is our fellow American Citizens that are here living off the welfare system. Granted some of them may genuinely need it but there are plenty that are just MILKING the system. A good example are most of the YOUNGER people living off of food stamps and GAU medical coupon. GAU- General Assistance Unemployable. People are constantly saying Im too sad to work or I cant be around a lot of people cause it makes me get overwhelmed. Well how ironic is it that you wont see them working but you will see them at concerts, bars and other gathering places. Granted some of the people really do suffer from those things but not nearly all of them. So before any of us point fingers maybe we should all STOP and look around. We have lazy people and so does Mexico. We have crime and so does Mexico. We all want better for ourselves and family and so do the people of Mexico. If you were on the other side of this picture and your family was struggling you would do whatever you could to help them! We don't choose what side of the border we are born on...we are just born.
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Another train of thought is that Norm is actually a card carrying conservative Republican and only spews this BS in this forum to incite the masses. This makes sense as no one could honestly be that liberal." . Am I still a plant from the WW as well? Either way, thanks for expressing your recognition that my arguments are unassailable by trying to shift the focus of discussion away from those arguments and toward conspiracy theories about my identity. I'm honored, really. Please continue to fail to address my arguments and instead work on more theories about who I really am. .
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"So before any of us point fingers maybe we should all STOP and look around. We have lazy people and so does Mexico." . Take your own advice. You're still only looking at the very poor - regardless of whether they are native or immigrant. . People who have almost no money obviously couldn't have taken that much more than they deserve (otherwise, they'd have more money. Think about it for a few minutes.) Sure, there are undoubtedly some cheats in every program, but somebody pulling a food stamp scam is infinitesmall potatoes. The people who are taking far more than they earn are the richest 1%. . If you want to know where all the water went, check the ocean, not a puddle. .
JustanObserver 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"The people who are taking far more than they earn are the richest 1%"
What an idiotic remark. Are you a socialist, Norm? Somebody is worth whatever someone else is willing to pay them. If a corporation is willing to pay a future CEO $x million dollars, as they feel that individual will lead to returns in excess of the salary paid, then that individual is worth that salary - that's market value. It's a capitalist nation, Norm, and suggesting that the richest 1% don't "earn" their money is pure ignorance.
JohnDoe 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm said: The people who are taking far more than they earn are the richest 1%. If you want to know where all the water went, check the ocean, not a puddle.
Norm always wants to blame successful Americans for our problems. He blames Yakima's ills on the American drug demand. Norm, when you blame America for everything, you ignore and disrespect the suffering experienced by the vicitims of the crime and violence illegal immigrants have brought to bear on our citizens. Can you tell the family of those lost by a drunk driving immigrant that really, the immigrant shouldin't be blamed - it's our American's demand to smoke weed? When the drive by shootings are happening in your neighborhood Norm, call the police and tell them they need to arrest more drug-abusing Americans so you can live peacefully without the risk of being shot. I'm sure the moment pot is legalized in WA state, violence and crime eminating from the Latino community will end instantaneously. The bad guys will all pack up and head back to Mexico. Sure, Norm.
Gator 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Wow. The All Time Most Popular Thread is still going on. And on. .
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Can you tell the family of those lost by a drunk driving immigrant that really, the immigrant shouldin't be blamed - it's our American's demand to smoke weed?" . First of all, that's a pretty big nonsequitor - jumping from drunk driving to weed. Secondly, a person who drives while intoxicated is responsible for whatever damage they cause as a result of that behavior - regardless of that person's legal status, or ethnic, religious, etc. background. This fact of personal responsibility does not mean that society at large can not adopt policies that contribute to an increase or decrease in damage caused by drunk drivers. For example, arresting, prosecuting, and punishing drunk drivers is a policy that most people agree contributes to a decrease in damage caused by drunk drivers. . "When the drive by shootings are happening in your neighborhood Norm, call the police and tell them they need to arrest more drug-abusing Americans so you can live peacefully without the risk of being shot." . No, that policy has been implemented for decades and has clearly proven to be a spectacular failure. The policy of directing all the profits from the manufacture and sale of intoxicants to illegal criminal organizations results in increasing the violence associated with black market capitalism. . "I'm sure the moment pot is legalized in WA state, violence and crime eminating from the Latino community will end instantaneously." . When is the last time you've heard of a gun battle between the Seagram's gang and the Anheiser Busch gang? .
DDD 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Am I still a plant from the WW as well? Either way, thanks for expressing your recognition that my arguments are unassailable by trying to shift the focus of discussion away from those arguments and toward conspiracy theories about my identity. I'm honored, really. Please continue to fail to address my arguments and instead work on more theories about who I really am. "
Norm you are delusional at best. I will acknowlege your arguments when they actually start dealing with reality. I am not holding my breath.
As far as the being a card carrying Republican comment goes, it was a stab at humor. Something that obviously you have no sense of.
JohnDoe 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm, I was pointing out the rediculous nature of your nonsequitor argument - ie that Yakima's crime problems (drunk driving, etc.) are ultimately the cause of American's drug demand. Many of the problems Yakima has (drunk driving, trashed neighborhoods, etc.) have little to do with drugs and much more to do with the Mexican culture at large. Yakim is exhibit A for what a non-secure border has done to portions of America. See southern California, Texas for exhibits B through Z. The culture of many illegal immigrants involves crime and filth plus drugs. See the trash on the border. America has enough of that type of culture already, we do not need to import even more. By the way, gang culture is not based solely on drugs. I've never seen a pot gang fighting a heroin gang either. Fights are rarely about drug territory and more often about old animosities and feuds - real or imagined.
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"The culture of many illegal immigrants involves crime and filth plus drugs" . Nice, John. That's exactly what I'm talking about. . "By the way, gang culture is not based solely on drugs." . Gang income is largely based on drugs. .
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"As far as the being a card carrying Republican comment goes, it was a stab at humor. Something that obviously you have no sense of." . I find nearly everything you say hilarious, so its difficult to tell when you know you're being ridiculous. .
1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"No, I will never vote republican."
Yup, you and VAT Obama are going to really help the poor. By the way Norm VAT = Value Added Tax (you know, a sales tax or what you could refer to as a horse of a different color). Isn't that one of those regressive taxes you hate so much? Go Democrats! Tax, tax, tax, tax . . . tax everyone!!!!!
Spirt_Winds 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Wenatchee World: Please do not remove MAD GSXRs post, above, for its overtly racist content. Please keep it on the record as incontrovertable proof of the racist attitude that underlies everything he writes about immigration and other political questions. . In other news, that's at least the third right-wing chain email posted here in the past week. .
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Reread my post Madguy - you apparently missed the word "not". .
JohnDoe 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm, you have argued that American demand for drugs is the cause of the gang culture and thus Yakima's problems (essentially blaming America for Yakima). While drugs fuel gangs, I have no doubt they would just shift focus to the myriad of other crimes they are involved with should drugs be legalized. We would see more car theft, burglary and possibly kidnappings. But the truth is, most of the trashiness in Yakima (and portions of Wenatchee) is not caused solely by gang members but the immigrant society itself. That is why I am arguing against importing more of that since we have enough trashy culture already here in the 'ol USA that we must manage.
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"But the truth is, most of the trashiness in Yakima (and portions of Wenatchee) is not caused solely by gang members but the immigrant society itself. That is why I am arguing against importing more of that since we have enough trashy culture already here in the 'ol USA that we must manage." . Here's another example of the racist underpinnings of the hysteria regarding immigrants: your belief in the "trashiness" of their society/culture. The evidence of this belief.attitude is further confirmed by GSXR's little joke above. .
JohnDoe 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
What is racist about that?? We do have plenty of trashy culture and it cuts across all races as far as I can tell. The common denominator is lack of eductation and good parenting - not race. There are plenty of good people in Mexico but they aren't the ones migrating north.
JohnDoe 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm, you are sure quick to pull out the old race card instead of confronting the arguement head on. You blame Yakima on American drugs and, when that doesn't work, you play the race card. And here I thought you were interested in honest debate.
JohnDoe 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Meant to say, "You blame Yakima on American drug use..."
cmerollin 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
DDD 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm do you have a hard time riding your bike with that nasty lean to the left? How many time you hit your head on something? Maybe some conservatism could straighten you right back up!
Political Spectrum in the US
Norm------------------------liberals-------------------------rest of USA (moderates)
DDD 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Doh. Nice web page formatting WW! Since Norm is your "Media and President" you moved the "Moderates" under Norm instead of after "rest of USA"..lol.
I think we all know he is anything but moderate.
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Don't forget jaywalking and driving one mph over the speed limit, madguy.
JohnDoe 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm,
Don't forget identity theft, drug trafficking, littering and tax evasion.
DDD 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Don't forget jaywalking and driving one mph over the speed limit, madguy"
8 U.S.C. § 1325 : US Code - Section 1325: Improper entry by alien
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
Norm as usual tries to compare being an illegal alien to jaywalking or speeding. Last time I checked, those offenses didn't come with jail time.
Now if the government would only enforce that law......
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"regardless of the menace" . = Cowardice and bigotry. .
1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
“"regardless of the menace" . = Cowardice and bigotry.”
That's not how it works, Norm. A statement of fact, like yours here, requires a link to a primary source. (Now where have I heard that before? Maybe it was from a boy riding a girls bike. LOL)
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Well, you're half-right here, so you are making progress. A statement of fact does require a link; a statement of opinion, like mine there, doesn't.
.
1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"a statement of opinion, like mine there, doesn't."
Oh, so that was an opinion. IMO, it sure looked like you were stating a fact. Generally, in my opinion, when one states an opinion, they say they are stating an opinion. Otherwise, it appears they are stating a fact, IMO. But, IMO, the way you always make a post, you mix up facts with opinions and hope the reader always believes you are stating fact, when what you are really saying is only an opinion that could just as well be fiction. So, I guess it is safe to say if you don't post a link supporting what you are saying, it is only an opinion, based upon your statement above. LOL
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"IMO, it sure looked like you were stating a fact. Generally, in my opinion, when one states an opinion, they say they are stating an opinion. Otherwise, it appears they are stating a fact, IMO." . That's because you obviously have a very tenuous grasp on how language works. Statements of fact can by objectively, empirically proven or disproven. Statements of opinion, like "avocados taste good" cannot be objectively, empirically proven or disproven. Its utterly unnecessary to preface every statement of opinion with IMO; the fact that you lack the ability to discern the difference does not mean that it is impossible or even difficult to do so. Caveats like IMO are only necessary when statements are much closer to the line between fact and opinion. . "But, IMO, the way you always make a post, you mix up facts with opinions and hope the reader always believes you are stating fact, when what you are really saying is only an opinion that could just as well be fiction." . I write with the assumption that those who read my words are adults with at least a basic grasp of the English language. I'm certainly not hoping that people will be as easily confused as you apparently are; its extremely tedious to have to explain how language works rather than focusing on the topic of discussion. .
1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"I write with the assumption that those who read my words are adults with at least a basic grasp of the English language" .
= lost cause that resorts to insults. .
That ok Norm, it was fun playing with you and letting you show everyone what type of person you are, in their opinion of course. LOL. It's people like you that are the cause of the illegal immigration problem, which is the only real immigration problem the US has.
artmann 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm, you have gone off the deep end on hurling insults at other commenters here. Why don't you just stick with making a verifiable fact and stop making opinions about others comments. Your opinions do not mean much to most people in this valley. So one other idea is find a paper in San Francisco or Capital Hill area of Seattle where you will get many kudos from all the other commenters and they will be right on board with your particular unrealistic view of the world.
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Norm, you have gone off the deep end on hurling insults at other commenters here. " . Look in a mirror, Art. . I appreciate the fact that you want me to shut up and go away; my only advice to you is : Don't hold your breathe waiting for that to happen. If you can't stand reading opinions that are different than yours, then you are free to skip over whatever I write here or to find a different forum where opinions you disagree with are censored. .
artmann 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm, you missed the point entirely, AGAIN!!! Your opinions are pretty much held in low regard in the WW readership area of this valley. My suggestion was you might be happier elsewhere, as you seem very bitter and resentful at a much higher rate lately. Your health might be better served where people actually want to read your comments and share unrealistic views of the world. Irrational is another word that comes to mind. When you argue you might want to present some facts and then back them up with a verifiable source. The majority of your comments are just pot shots at other peoples comments. All you are doing is bringing yourself and the WW comments section down.
JohnDoe 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Norm hides behind language when the holes in his arguments are exposed. He typically spins away from his original intended argument by diverting attention to word definitions or other minor details. He exemplifies the Clintonian spin, "It depends on what your definition of "is" is."
Resident 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"When you argue you might want to present some facts and then back them up with a verifiable source. The majority of your comments are just pot shots at other peoples comments." . Sounds like the majority of the posters on here.
Marshall 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Art, Speak for yourself. Norm is a breath of fresh air after reading so many ungenerous and intolerant posters on this site. I find that by looking at people positively whether they merit it or not, I'm much happier. Maybe Norm is trying to share his more charitable point of view with those of you who, in fact, seem to be the bitter ones. You might find the world to be a better place than you thought.
DDD 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Well aren't you a ray of sunshine!
The fact is, Art is just one of many on this board (myself included) that are of the same opinion. Frustrated by the path this country is taking and by a lack of caring about the immigration (Legal or Illegal) problem. Norm is definitely in the minority. Being positive about something is great, but that won't stop the illegals from crossing the border.
I guess I should try to be more positive.
I am positive it won't stop them from crossing. There! I feel better now!
Norm is not a breath of fresh air. His breath stinks of socialism and a desire to turn the US into a 3rd world country like Mexico.
I am positive about that. Wow your right. That feels great!
Marshall 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Yea. Maybe you should try being a ray of sunshine! Life's better that way. All you do is post your negative, bitter, blame everybody attitude and you might notice that it doesn't change anything. We still have an immigration problem and you're definitely not part of a solution. Maybe you should do a bit of research about what this administration is actually doing to try to stop the flow of illegal immigrants. Also, how ridiculous for you to claim that Norm wants to make our country into a 3rd world country. It starts looking like you'd all be happy to see our country go to pot as long as you can blame the present administration. That's a true American, right?
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Thanks, Marshall.
DDD 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
"Yea. Maybe you should try being a ray of sunshine! Life's better that way. All you do is post your negative, bitter, blame everybody attitude and you might notice that it doesn't change anything. We still have an immigration problem and you're definitely not part of a solution. Maybe you should do a bit of research about what this administration is actually doing to try to stop the flow of illegal immigrants. Also, how ridiculous for you to claim that Norm wants to make our country into a 3rd world country. It starts looking like you'd all be happy to see our country go to pot as long as you can blame the present administration. That's a true American, right?"
No I am not blaming just the present administration. I am blaming Bush, Clinton and every administration before them.
You don't know me and you have no idea if I am a positive or negative person. My posts here are based on a problem this country has. Yes its true, problems are almost always negative. Deal with it.
My problem with your argument (and Norms) is you don't think its a big deal that we have millions and millions of ILLEGAL immigrants in this country. Illegal! Did you catch that word? In case I need to explain to you what that word means, it means it is against the law.
Norm seems to believe that it is no more a crime than jaywalking. I beg to differ. As I have stated before, jaywalking is not punishable by jail time. Illegal is Illegal. Plain and simple that is the whole argument on this board. I couldn't care less about the quota discussions that have taken place here. To me, that is a discussion that needs to happen when the laws that are in effect now, are actually enforced. The current administration is not enforcing these laws, just like the administrations before them.
Norm seems to believe that we should have open borders. Let everyone in regardless of documentation. We all know what that would lead to. Yes thats right. The US would become a 3rd world country, overrun with poverty. Hey we might as well invite terrorists in too while we are at it. We could save millions in costs fighting them here instead of the Middle East. Sounds like a grand plan.
There has to be some control as to who we let into this country. As I have stated before, I am all for immigration. Everyone of us here, unless native American, descended from immigrants. The difference, is our ancestors came here legally, became citizens and adapted to the American way of life. Not the other way around. This I resent. Call me negative if you will.
So yes, I am a true American. I fly the flag outside my house everyday with pride. Can you say that?
Marshall 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Jay jay, you can fool yourself that flying a flag in front of your house makes you a true American, but how silly is that? Anyone, American or not, can fly a flag and I'm sure you'd agree with me that it doesn't make them an American. Yes, we have a problem and maybe you haven't heard that President Obama just committed to adding 400 border patrol agents to the US-Mexican border in an attempt to stop this illegal immigration, but we know that won't solve the problem alone. He's working on it and it takes time to solve the problem. I remember when he first got elected, people were complaining that he had promised to do something about it, but if he had thrown all of his time and effort into that while not solving the economic problem, people would complain about that. These issues aren't resolved overnight and since the problem has been going well before this administration, solving it in a year or two just isn't going to happen. But here you are, thinking that somehow by putting down anyone who doesn't go off on the immigrants, themselves or ranting and raving about our government makes you an American. Honestly, does that make sense?
The one thing that you along with many people posting here don't want to do is look at the fact that these people whether you consider them criminals or not, are real people, often kind, caring people, who have to be considered in any solution. I'm going to say the bad word here, Amnesty, because any solution that comes along will have to include that. There's no way we can deport 1, 2 or more million people from this country who are actually working and adding to our economy without destroying the economic stability that we do have.
DDD 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Marshall I think we may actually agree on a few items here. Hows that for a start? "There's no way we can deport 1, 2 or more million people from this country who are actually working and adding to our economy without destroying the economic stability that we do have."
2 million? How about 13 million? I agree that amnesty is probably part of the solution, and would support that if it leads to a path of citizenship and we are able to lock down the borders afterwards. At some point, even you would agree there has to be a better protected border. I am not naive. I know that amnesty will have to be part of the solution. There is simply no way to deport 13 million people, not to mention the destabilizing impact it would have on Mexico.
"President Obama just committed to adding 400 border patrol agents to the US-Mexican border in an attempt to stop this illegal immigration".
Although I do applaud Obama for adding border agents, you and I both know this was his attempt to appease the AZ law supporters at least for now. 400 agents on a 2000 mile border is like adding 1 cup of gasoline to an empty gas tank. Its a start sure, but really doesn't address the issue much. Now had he added 4000 agents, I would be the first to cheer.
"But here you are, thinking that somehow by putting down anyone who doesn't go off on the immigrants, themselves or ranting and raving about our government makes you an American. "
Once again, the argument is about criminal activity versus those who think its is no big deal.
" whether you consider them criminals or not, are real people, often kind, caring people, who have to be considered in any solution"
I have never said they are not people that deserve a break. My point has always been, do it legally. I do feel for those that do not have the standard of living we do. I have been all over the world while in the US military and have seen poverty. While I do believe in helping them out, I do not believe in letting them come here illegally. Now this being said, I do believe that we need to make it easier for those that wish to immigrate legally, be able to do it.
DDD 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Oh and by the way, serving 8 years in the US Military including 2 conflicts, means that yes I do get to call myself a true American. I fly my flag because I am proud to be an American.
Marshall 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Actually, Jay Jay, I do agree with you on most points here. I've never said that we should have unlimited immigration or that we don't have a serious problem with our mostly unprotected borders. I guess I was taking issue with the name-calling that you seem to be doing. I think we agree that something has to be done and the question is what to do. After reading all of the posts here, it seems that no one can say whether it is 1 million or 13 million or probably something in between, but we do have to stop the flow and we do have to allow for some legal immigration. We also have to find a way of making amnesty available for many of the illegal immigrants presently living here. So, you can see, that I really am on your page about this, I just would like to have it be a more civil conversation. And, while I certainly disagree with the Arizona law because I think it makes all Hispanic people second class citizens, even those who are citizens and possibly veterans as you are, maybe the law will force the government to actually do something about the problem.
DDD 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Amen brother!
Flamebike 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Marshall---Have you READ the Arizona law?
It mirrors the Federal laws on immigration. I get real tired of folks saying they're against the Az. law, when they don't really know what they're talking about.
I live in Arizona for half of the year, and I can tell you, for a fact, that there are hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of illegals in that state (as well as Calif.--New Mexico--Texas) that create havoc on Law Enforcement, the Healthcare system, public services (ie-food banks--low income housing--etc.) and give rise to most gang activities in those states. They have to resort to robbery, stealing, car jacking, forced entry and any other illegal activity to make a buck--cuz they can't get a job without the proper ID--that's why it's so important for the Az. Law to be enforced, to weed out the illegals and mostly the undesireables and the gangs.
Certainly, there are some really good people that deserve a break, but they need to go thru the proper channels, and our Gov't needs to make that happen, sooner than later, withOUT amnesty--it's what has created the major problem we have today. Regan gave amnesty to millions of illegals, and made a mockery out of our border protection as well as our legal system. This is one of the reasons why we're having this out of control migration today--they (the illegals) are looking for the rerun of the Regan method of dealing with this crisis--a free ride into OUR country--just try that in THIER country!!!
Resident 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Actually, the courts ruled that parts of the AZ law violated two federal laws or practices. States can't trump the fed. . I find it interesting that police groups have not supported the law.
anniebear 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
The Supremacy Clause in the Constitution explains that federal law always trumps state law which means federal always wins if there is a conflict between the two. If there is no conflict then the state law will be used but if there is any question or conflict of the two reading as the same, then the federal rule would win.
Icantdance 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
The truth is there should be no illegal aliens or legal aliens. We should have open borders and work permits and let the newcomers sink or swim as my Irish, Swedish and Dutch ancestors did. Let people bring their culture and language to the US. It enriches us all. We can and should enforce drug laws and punish illegal acts of violence or theft.
If you remove the illegal label, you have a rich array of taxpaying and contributing citizens. If they can't make it here, then they will go somewhere else. It is the 'illegal' label that is the problem. Not the hard working people who are trying as all of us do to make a better life for their children.
JustanObserver 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Vicki, your "utopian world" would fail utterly. When you add a ton of unskilled workers to the U.S. economy, and overburden it as such, you will have very high unemployment, wages would be severely depressed, and assimilation costs, schools and infrastructure would be problematic. All industrialized nations have immigration laws, and many (probably most in my experience) are more stringent in practice than the U.S. Your standard of living, Vicki, would go down significantly...are you willing to make that sacrifice?
Icantdance 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
America must be kept American? What does that even mean? Native American?
When did your ancestors become American? I suppose you mean US citizens because anyone in this hemisphere are technically 'American'.
You just want to create another bunch of red tape and how much is that going to cost. I would rather have open borders and make US companies pay a living wage here than $2 per hour in Mexico. I would rather that people worked and paid taxes here than
JustanObserver 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
+1 Martin, but you are talking to Vicki here...
So do you trust your vast knowledge of economics, Vicki, over that of the U.S. and every other industrialized nation which has immigration laws...they have these laws for a reason, you know.
JohnDoe 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
America has it's own culture to be proud of and it is under threat by the media and liberal educators who want to rewrite history to their own liking. Add large populations who obviously prefer the culture of their country of origin to that of the US and you can see why people are concerned. When you have to be bilingual to get some of the best jobs in the valley, including the best government jobs, then you have to wonder what is happening to our culture. Do we really want a situation where we must teach our children Spanish in order to be gainfullly employed so that immigrants aren't put out by having to learn English?
Icantdance 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
John Doe which 'best jobs' do you have to be bi-lingual? Doctor? Lawyer? Accountant? Librarian? Teacher?
Nurse? Janitor? Hair Stylist?
Construction worker? Office Clerk?
How many of these 'best' jobs require eduction and training? Which best jobs are you refering to?
Orchard work? Farm work, Processing planets?
And Madgsxr if they deport me to England or Canada at least I will get health care. I might not get a knee replacement before someone who needs it worse than I do unless I pay more but at least I can get my meds.
JohnDoe 1 year, 5 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
How about working for Social Security, DSHS, many other state and federal jobs, yes, teachers, court clerks, nurses, banking, insurance agencies and if you are an attorney, your business is boosted if you speak Spanish.
Vicki, you may get your meds in Canada but only by taking advantage of your fellow Americans who are paying full price. America is subsidizing the world's health research. America should no longer export meds to countries that do not pay the full price. It just drives up the cost for the rest of us. So, good for Canada and UK and all the other price controllers who've found a way to beat the system and screw Americans at the same time. Nobody wants the alternative which is the reduction of research into new cures for diseases. Nobody disputes that American research drives new discoveries and cures. Canada and the socialized medical systems can't touch American ingenuity. Guess why? Because of the "evil" profits to be made. Go Capitalism!!
macs3366 1 year, 4 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
If everyone followed through with the existing laws and not hired illegal aliens, then why on earth would they want to come here if they could'nt get a job. The fact is they would'nt come here or they would go through the necessary steps to be able to come and work in our country. Businesses need to be held accountable for hiring illegal aliens and should face severe penalties for doing so. Any business that requires an employee to be bilingual in order to get hired should be fined. We as a whole nation need to quit catering to the hispanics. Anyone that immigrates here from any other country that is non-spanish speaking has to learn English and so should they. All businesses should be required to check a government database and verify the person applying for a job is legal to do so before they are ever hired. If the SSN they gave you was listed as a 50 yr old filipino women living in Maine and the person that gave it to you was a 25 yr old Hispanic male, I would venture to say he was ILLEGAL. That is part of the reason Stemilt is having their problems with injured undocumented workers. If we would as a whole nation weed out the illegals, then they would be able to address the complaints of it taking so long to go through the process of Acquiring Legal status. We would probably be able to extend the number of applicants per year, cut down on the amount of time it takes to acquire legal or resident status, and up the worker permits each yr. But we need start with getting the borders secure and weeding the illegals out. Everyone has to do their part from the individual citizen to the businesses, on up to the government. Peace and Love
MariaF 1 year, 4 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I just noticed, on the World's job window, that the WASHINGTON STATE Licensing is hiring!! But you have to speak Spanish. What the hell country are we in? I do not see a requirement for Korean, Vietnamese or Russian although we have residents from those countries as well. Why not take the test and pass it in English and save some lives.
FastStang 1 year, 2 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
Not only in law enforcement. My wife can't get a teaching job because most opening require bilingual.
joanne 1 year, 2 months ago
Who Is To Blame For Illegal Immigration?
I think this Hate Fest has gone on long enough. It is fostering anger, hate and discord. Promoting thoughtful discussion is a good thing, but I don't see many comments which are thoughtful, civil, or even rational. Enough is enough!.
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