Worship Centers – Who Decides
Blog: Werner Janssen's blog
September 6, 2010
An intense debate has erupted concerning the location of several worship centers. For clarification, I’m defining a worship center as a location or structure generating emotional attachment where people gather to gain internal strength and renewed energy to face the challenges of the day. The first worship center I’ll address is a Starbucks Coffee shop. Emotions are heating up in Boston and generating temperatures sufficiently high to steam lattes. The heated debate concerns the proposed location of a Starbucks, a mere two blocks from the Boston Harbor, site of the 1773 Boston Tea Party. Apparently a coffee house and historical tea parties don’t mix.
The next debate is more serious and concerns a worship center generating emotions challenging the concept of our democracy and the freedom guaranteed by our constitution. This debate involves the Islamic center two blocks from the original site of the twin towers. Clarification is needed as to what constitutes “sacred ground” since this is the point generating the emotional opposition. The attack on the twin towers resulted in the loss of 2,749 people. The response to this attack has thus far killed 5,623 American men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan. Should we also declare the soil of Iraq and Afghanistan as sacred ground?
I fear that Newt Gingrich and Sara Palin along with many other Republicans and a few Democrats are acting through selfish motives to seize the moment and again use the tragedy of 9/11 to elevate the level of emotions within the country. They are obviously using this situation to demonize the Obama administration while also victimizing the Islamic faith. If these leaders, who are fueling the fire of hatred and discontent, really cared for our country they would understand the damage they are doing to our Democracy. Those who are using the Islamic faith to herd the fearful are doing more damage to the future of our democracy than terrorists have accomplished in the last ten years. It is clear that no political power, even with the might of our military, can guarantee our safety if certain voices continue to demonize other societies and their religions. Generating political gain through continued emotional rhetoric is as short sighted as developing corporate financial plans based on quarterly reports. We have an administration that is attempting to save our democracy through long term alliances and correction of past policies that have set us up for a major fall. A few loud voices in our society who delight in lies and hateful rhetoric are destroying the freedom too many have given the ultimate sacrifice to preserve. Financial and political greed is unfortunately motivating our political system. God forgive us for we know not what we are doing and God help us face our uncertain future.
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psychoteacher 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
The comparison between the 9/11 victims and American lives lost in Iraq and Afghanistan is illogical and just plain wrong. I understand what you getting at, but this analogy is apples and oranges. As for the damage that Palin and Company are doing, that is totally different. Not only are they helping to feed the nation's misguided fear and loathing of Islam, they are playing into the hands of the extremist that thrive on that same fear and loathing. I heard a great piece on NPR today about how the extremist use this hatred to help paint America as the enemy and use their twisted views of Islam to recrute more into their terror network. I can already see the responses to this. This has nothing to do with political correctness (I am a very strong believer that political correctness is neither). This is about acceptance and tolerance of others and their beliefs.
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Check out General Petraeus, commenting in the WSJ on a similar topic: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703713504575475500753093116.html
psychoteacher 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Thanks for that post, Norm. Pastor Jones' intentions are at best scary. I find it hard to imagine any justification for anyone, let alone man who preaches the Word of God, to even consider burning the holy book of any other religion. Yes, his right to do so is protected, but that doesn't make what he is doing right.
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
I just lost my post somehow (so frustrating) so here is the just of it. Werner is just making a political statement. His definition of a "Worship Center" could be applied to any bathroom.
Book burning is wrong no matter who does it. I think every one should know what the Koran says.
Norms post is interesting, especially where it exposes the furor that can erupt when the Islamic Holy Book is mis treated. Peace loving Muslims change their tune when their book is challenged. The book that says: "Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73) "Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
psychoteacher 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Tim, you are right about Werner's definiton of a "Worship Center", but I believe he was using the comparison to make a point about protests, not degrade the term. I hate to bring this up Tim, but past posts you have made make your feelings about Islam very clear. Outside of the quotes that the extremist use to make their point, you know very little about Islam. If you are going to quote the Holy Quran, I would suggest that you read and understand the Holy Quran IN ITS ENTIERITY before you make blanket generalizations about an entire group of people. Statements like the one you just made are no better than the ones being made by Palin and Company and only add to the fuel that General Petreaus speaks of.
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Gordon, rather than just casting aspersions in an attempt to discredit me, show me (and everyone else) where I am wrong. If someone mis-quotes the Bible out of context I give context and definition to help them understand (and am mocked for my efforts). If my quotes from the Koran need interpretation please do so. I have read most of these things in context in my copy of the Koran and have read short briefings on the ways of Islam, and not all from religious sources. I read the news and secular reference material also. It is news articles like the one Norm offered that show Islams passion for their holy book so when I am told they don't really believe those militant parts I have my doubts.
Instead of just telling me I'm wrong, prove it, school me. It's funny how, when they hear about someone desecrating the Koran they shout "Death to America", but when I warn people about what the book says, their true belief system, I am told to keep quiet and wise up. So wise me up if I'm wrong. Until then I will sound the warning.
psychoteacher 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
I never said that you misquoted the Holy Quran, I said that "in past posts you have made your feelings about Islam very clear" and "outside of the quotes used by extremist, you know very little about Islam". If you would like me to go back and cut and paste our discussion from your July 4th blog that show how little you know about Islam as a whole, I would be more than happy to. Your taking just a small portion of the Holy Quran and using it to blanket your beliefs about Islam as a whole is doing nothing more than fueling the fire and vicious circle that the terrorists are feeding off of. As the good Christian and American that I am sure you are, it is YOUR duty and responsibiliy to show tolerance and respect towards others and teach those that are misguided the correct way. Not spread hate as you are doing.
psychoteacher 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
There you go Tim. These are your answers to my questions about your knowledge of Islam. Sound familar?
psychoteacher (Gordon Shirk) says...
"So, what you are saying Tim is that the complete works of the Koran are dangerous?" NO "Are you familiar with the Five Pillars of Islam?" Barely " Do you understand the meaning of the Holy Month of Ramadan?" NO "Do you know any Muslims?" Not on a personal level "How much time have you spent working and associating with Muslims?" Little "How did you feel about Muslims before Sept. 11, 2001?" The same as I feel now. Their violence didn't start with 9/11 "You opened the door Tim by calling Islam "dangerous" these are all fair questions." Opened what door? I didn't answer because they are not relevant questions. And now these questions ARE relevent because this discussion IS about people's view about Islam. You went on to state that you aren't an expert, which I am not either. But it is obvious that you haven't taken the time to understand what Islam is REALLY about.
spanky 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Tim, your act is getting very tired. What's most frustrating is your incessant clinging to selected versus of the Koran to prove a larger point: your belief that the Koran justifies terrorist acts by its own words. By cherry-picking verses from the Koran and ignoring the larger message of the book you follow the same corrupt reasoning that xenophobes and book-banners have followed for centuries to justify their beliefs. The bitter irony is that its well documented Osama Bin laden uses your exact tactic to sway potential recruits. He quotes your oft-cited verses as justification and ignores the rest of the book. The Koran accepts war only in self defense. "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them" (4: 90). Hundreds of years ago, men took a few select lines from the new testament and decided to "take up his cross" (Mt 16:24/Mk 8:34/Lk 9:23) and murder hundreds of thousands of people. When they needed justification to put people to the sword, the following became relevant: "I have come not to bring peace, but a sword." (Mt 10:34-36; cf. Lk 12:51-53).
You say you "give context" to the bible. Perfect. So you understand how to read such an ancient text. The problem is you seem to refuse to "give context" to the verses in the Koran you keep quoting. By doing so you not only pervert the religion of so many, you reveal an incredible amount of hubris.
The tragic thing is that somewhere in the middle east there is some fundamentalist muslim who likes submitting to the "comments" section of his local paper by cherry picking select quotes from the bible to paint all christians like war-mongering crusaders. And so it goes. On and on.
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
RE Kill the infidels:
"When the Islamic state was rapidly expanding in the seventh and eighth century, many people came under the direct governance of Muslims. These peoples belonged to different religions, races, ethnicities, etc. If the hypothesis that "Muslims are required to eradicate non-Muslims or "infidels" was correct, then a pattern of deliberate extermination, forced conversions, and/or expulsion would have been observed throughout the history of Islam, especially when Muslims were powerful and winning over their opponents.
That systematic pattern is simply absent. For example, let us take India. India (or considerable parts of it) was for several centuries under the Muslim Mughal Empire. Many of the subjects of the empire, up to and including very high-ranking state officials, were Hindu. (This does not mean that Hindus lived under no discrimination whatsoever. But this is another issue.) Till now, India is a predominantly Hindu country. The facts on the ground belie the hypothesis that Muslims have believed that non-Muslims should be killed, evicted, or forced to convert.
Another example: in contemporary Egypt, which was included in the Islamic state only ten years after the demise of the Prophet, about 6-10% of the people are Christians. Contrast this with Spain. For about eight centuries, Spain was a place of peaceful co-existence for Muslims, Christians, and Jews. (Again, I am not, at all, claiming that everyone enjoyed the same rights under the Arab/Muslim ruling.) However, in 1492 Ferdinand and Isabella signed the Edict of Expulsion designed to rid Spain of its Jews. The Jews were given a stark choice: baptism or deportation. An estimated 50,000 fled to the Ottoman empire where they were warmly welcomed. And about 70,000 converted to Christianity and remained in the country only to be plagued by the Inquisition which accused them of insincerity. In 1499, the Spanish state gave its Muslims the same choice: convert or leave. The result of these policies was simple: Spain almost entirely got rid of millions of people who were not Christians. (Spain now of course has minority groups, including Muslims coming mainly from North Africa as immigrants.)
http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/jihad/kill_the_infidels.asp
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Further down on the page I quoted and linked above is a short paragraph written for Tim:
"The worst thing to do with the Quran is to approach it seeking confirmation for what one already believes in and turning a blind eye to any evidence that is inconsistent with his/her pre-conceived attitudes and biases. Anyone can find in the Quran whatever he/she wants to prove. Anyone can do the same thing with the Bible. The challenge, however, is to make a judgment only after a thorough and exhaustive investigation of all available Quranic evidence."
girlfawkes 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
The only issue here in both cases involves property rights, which in my opinion should remain sacrosanct. As long as the property is located in a zoning area that allows businesses and churches, no one has any right to prevent that use of the property. Plain and simple.
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Imagine your son or daughter was killed in Iraq or Afghanistan and the Westborough Baptist Church comes to picket the funeral with their signs saying "Thank God for dead soldiers" and so on.
Do you now despise your neighbors who attend the Baptist Church across the street from you, or do you recognize that they abhor the WBC and their protests nearly as much as you do?
The people of Manhatten are in favor of letting the Islamic Center be built at its proposed site.
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
There is to much for me to respond to.
"Not spread hate as you are doing." Gordon, I think truth is just that, neither kind nor hateful, just truth.
"The Koran accepts war only in self defense. "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them" (4: 90). " Wow, Spanky, talk about taking things OUT of context! The rest of that page is about seizing and killing those who oppose you. Are you a Satan worshiper? The Koran says you are: "The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight against the friends of Satan." 4:75
I'm not trying to stir up trouble, but it's in the book. Get a copy and sit and read. They take care of their own very well, but if you oppose them you are evil. That's what the book says. So much for tolerance.
I don't know what to say about the past history of evil done in the name of Christ. There is nothing biblical supporting it and as far as I can tell it was all done when the government took over religion. Until recent centuries the Muslim world was contained in the east and there is much historical record of holy wars led by Muslims. I do know that today in Pakistan Christians are being killed by Muslims. I also know that it is more than the treatment of non believers: "Men take authority over women... As for those who are disobedient, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them." (Surah 4:34) Many countries have strict rules about a womans dress and behavior.
You all seem to think it noble to fight for tolerance for the most intolerant religion on earth. I have nothing against Muslims as people. I do business with them without hesitation. My comments are strictly a warning, their holy book teaches violence and it only takes one screwball pastor burning the Koran to incite a whole bunch of Muslims against America.
Oh, and Norm, I'd love to see something about the people of Manhattan supporting the Mosque being built there. I very Muslim area now isn't it?
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
FerdBerfel (Ferd Berfel) says... "This discussion reminds me of an 8-track tape. A continous loop wherein the songs never change.
Yawn.........."
The difference between us Ferd is I learn something every time I have one of these discussions because I am researching what I say not just trashing others for speaking out.
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Norm, it the Muslims did not fight in open warfare then their war was conducted on a covert and subversive level because they gained much power and wealth. That is what is happening in Europe the Muslims are taking control a piece at a time and have no reason to bring blood shed. The Continent will be theirs in twenty or thirty years without a single battle.
psychoteacher 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
You have admited in the past Tim, that you have not read or understand the Holy Quran in it's entierity. My posts, with your quotes, reflect that. You current comments about violance committed in the name of Christ and Islam show that you are only intrested in interperting these two Holy books in a way that fits your beliefs. Your comments about Muslims in Europe show that you are really afraid of Muslims. Just what are you afraid of? That they are going to take over Europe in the name of Islam? Keep in mind, it was Europeans that eradicated the Native Americans in the name of Christ.
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Gordon, you can analyze me all you want and it doesn't change a thing. Anyone who would like to discuss facts, I'm more than interested!
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
"Seems to me all you do is reinforce your already firmly held beliefs in order to solidify your preconceptions and stereotypes. " That does seem to be what I learn. Maybe because everyone who could "school me" is to busy bashing and degrading me personally to argue with facts.
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
From your linked NYT article:
" in Manhattan, considered a bastion of religious tolerance, where 41 percent are against it. "
41% is a majority?
JimboBear 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
It could be considered such Norm if the poll was taken with three choices as in: for, against and un-decided.
JimboBear 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Ooooops! The above was in response to your question of the 41% majority.
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
"Perhaps your mind is not open to any "facts" other than those that you already subscribe to. " I rest my case
ynkeeraidr 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Guns don't kill people, religion does. A persons beliefs are so dependant on where that individual was born and by what their parents beliefs are. A child is going to believe his/her parents out of love/obedience for the parent. Geography will decide if one is a hindu or a christian or a muslim etc.. Religion is as random as the weather. People try to predict what will happen using their "chosen belief". The weather changes every minute. Why should I believe in "one weather report"?
psychoteacher 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Tim, you have just admitted that you are happy with your facts as you interpert them, regardless of if, is reality could be wrong. You want people to "school you". Why don't you do the education yourself? In not doing so, it gives you an excuse to continue with your ingorant, intolerant and Un-Christian rants. You, my friend, are contributing to the problem. As I stated before, why don't to try spreading the word of "love thy fellow man' for a change by taking the time to learn what Islam is REALLY about instead of bashing something you REALLY DON'T KNOW OR UNDERSTAND.
JimboBear 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Gordon, I really don't want to be a part of an argument (debate if you will) about religion, but I gotta say this. I think that everyone here except Tim Feels that he is over the top in his religious viewpoint. I don't believe that he thinks about much else other than religion. So when the Holy Bible states in John 14:6 that "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.", why do you feel that you can convince him to believe or take any interest in any other line of thought? Isn't it kind of pointless to continue to badger him about his beliefs? You don't really think he's going to change them, do you?
psychoteacher 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
No, I don't. The last couple of statements of Tim's proved that point loud and clear. And for that reason, I wasn't planning on making any more comments or replies. I just find it sad that someone who takes his religion as seriously as Tim does (and there is nothing wrong with that) has distorted, a beautiful religion that teaches tolerance and acceptance of others into a belief that is on the same level as the Muslim fundementalism that he believes is practiced by every follower of Islam.
JimboBear 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
I know just what you are saying Gordon. That's one of the reasons I refuse to argue religion. I see many similarities in all the faiths that I have read to any extent, and I'm sure not going to tell anyone that their beliefs are wrong while mine are right. I have some very strong convictions myself, and I have chosen to believe "my way". Mostly, I suspect that the important thing in the eyes of our creator is simply that we do believe and make every effort to embrace one another whenever we can.
I recall a closing line from one of Rod McKuen's poems that states . . ."It only takes an outstretched hand." Somehow, that seems to sum it all up in my mind.
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
"The weather changes every minute. Why should I believe in "one weather report"? " Good question Brad. I would say you believe the one that has been right 100% of the time. The Bible has a perfect record of prophecy. I can tell you about predictions that would blow your mind, if you wanted to hear about them.
" it gives you an excuse to continue with your ingorant, intolerant and Un-Christian rants. " Gordon, I try not to be ignorant; I read and study and listen to more learned men than myself, what else can I do? I do tolerate people. I am very kind to those I meet and understanding of their differences. I am just a lover of the truth, and YES I shout, YES I believe what I know from scripture to be true. I also believe what the Muslims read in their scriptures is what THEY believe to be true. So how is it intolerant of me to show you what they believe. I don't burn books or give hate speeches. Nothing I have said here is hateful, it is merely true. And who are you to tell me what is "Un-Christian"? You couldn't care less what IS or is not Christian. Christ stated the truth when it was very unpopular, that's why they Crucified Him.
"has distorted, a beautiful religion that teaches tolerance and acceptance of others " Gordon, I'm sorry, but this is a lie! Some Muslims, maybe even most Muslims, may believe in tolerance and acceptance, but that is not what their religion teaches. I have shown you that is not what it teaches, but you call me ignorant for exposing the facts.
"."It only takes an outstretched hand." Somehow, that seems to sum it all up in my mind." Jim, you seem like an understanding guy. But let me point out that it truly does depend on what is in that "Outstretched hand" to determine if you should take it.
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
"I read and study and listen to more learned men than myself, what else can I do?"
You could start by having a little less faith in your own infallibility. You clearly consider yourself the ultimate interpreter of not only the Bible and Christianity, but the Koran and Islam, as well. Chances are, you also consider yourself the Pope of Judaism, but it just hasn't come up in conversation here yet.
psychoteacher 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Tim, the "beautiful religion that teaches tolerance and acceptance of others" that I was refering to is Christianity.
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Norm, I have admitted when you have shown me to be wrong before. I don't deserve that and didn't expect it from you. I sound like the "authoritarian" because I am the only one making the stand I am making. As for my stand on Islam, I CHALLENGE YOU tell me what statement I have made except to QUOTE the book! You people deny the facts. If I were giving my opinion I could expect the scoffing, but to quote THEIR writings and get called names for it completely confounds me. I have done enough research to justify and entitle myself an opinion on religious matters. I challenge anyone to show me my errors but all you can do is deny the quotes I give, amazing.
Gordon, I did mis-read your remark, my mistake. But I now expect you to show me where Jesus taught tolerance and acceptance. Jesus called the pharisees children of the Devil for their mis-use of the Holy writings we now know as the Old Testament. He took sinners and loved them and said "stop sinning". He said "You are my followers if you do as I say". He loves but love doesn't mean toleration, it means doing and demanding what is right.
Norm 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
"Now go and attack Amalek and utterly destroy all that the...y have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." - 1 Samuel 15:2,3
Therefore, all Christians must support killing non-combatants, including infants and nursing children. All Christians must be terrorists because this Bible verse clearly commands the killing of innocent women and children.
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
FerdBerfel (Ferd Berfel) says... "Tim, you would be less subject to ridicule and less likely to be so closely scrutinized if you were to..."
"...act a lttle less self righteous,..." How can I be construed as self righteous when I am not talking about myself? . "... accept your fallibilty and be a little more humble..." I have admitted mistakes and accepted learning...and you have no idea how humble I am from what I say here. I make no boast on myself, only that I trust in what I have read in scripture.
" As it is, you come across as an arrogant know-it-all." Why? Because I tell you what I believe?
"Oh... if only more Christians would be a little more Christ-like." Since you are now an authority on Christ, show me with scripture what He was like, please!
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Norm, there are so many things wrong with your out of context quote and opinion. If you had read the context: " 2"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt." You would see the Amalekites were not innocent or "non-combatants", as you said.
Second, these old Testament battles were for Israel. You make the mistake of raising Christians to the level of Israelites. The Israelites are God's chosen and God will protect them at all cost. He did allow them to be scattered after they rejected their Messiah, but He has brought them back together again, as prophesied. You never hear about the enemies of Israel from the Old Testament, such as the Amalekites, because they have not be preserved like the Israelites.
See, God deals with Israel on different terms. We can learn much from their story but to say their battles reflect the Christian model is wrong.
In the case of Israel, God sends them to do His battle, to pass judgment. But in the case of Christians, God tells us He will administer judgment in due time, we are to turn the other cheek. Christians who understand the role of Israel are not their enemies.
The Koran puts Muslims in place of Israel and says the followers of Christ are of the Devil. I preach no hatred for Muslims, I teach about their hatred for Jews and Christians FROM THEIR OWN BOOK!
What the Koran instructs the Muslims to do and what the Bible instructs the Christian to do are polar opposites.
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
FerdBerfel (Ferd Berfel) says... LOL! Exactly the type of response I expected, Tim.
I rest my case. LOL!!
Good, I rest mine too!
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
I thought you rested Ferd!
1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
" As it is, you come across as an arrogant know-it-all." Why? Because I tell you what I believe?
.
Tim, if one person believes you are an arrogant know-it-all, it's just one person's opinion, and can be taken with a grain of salt. But EVERYONE HERE thinks you're arrogant (on this subject), Tim! For crying out loud, Tim, even Norm's calling you on it! Are we all wrong? I admit that it's quite possible, as the majority are wrong all the time. But on a personal level, if everyone feels that way about you, wouldn't it be better to reflect on yourself for awhile, and maybe change a thing or two, rather than defensively try to shift the blame onto everyone else? It's borderline OCD, Tim, seriously.
.
I honestly just wish the human race would give up it's religious fantasies--all of them. Too many people have died over their "interpretations" of these millennia old texts, which are by now mostly useless drivel (if indeed they ever had any significance to begin with).
.
"Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too"
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Not everyone thinks I'm arrogant, they just want me to shut up about my faith, the Bible, and truth. The truth hurts, it makes people angry, but the truth can set you free if you embrace it.
"Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too"
If you are waiting for John Lennon to raise from the dead it ain't happening. Jesus filled THAT prophecy!
psychoteacher 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
Tim, your response to "Me" once again shows that you ARE arrogant and self-rightous simply because you continually refuse to even consider that what others are saying could be right. It's intresting that these posts took place on Sept 11. There is a point to be made in that. Unlike what some people want to think, Islam WAS NOT responable for the attacks on 9-11. The responability lies in the hands of a handful of terrorists who chose to mis-interpert small portions of the Holy Quran for their own puposes. Now Tim, I know you are not a terrorist, but you are doing the exact same thing.
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
"a handful of terrorists who chose to mis-interpert small portions of the Holy Quran for their own puposes" OK Gordon, right here, right now, show me how they mis-interpret the Koran. THIS is the basis for my whole argument, what does the Koran teach Muslims? It teaches them to hate non-adherents, namely Christians and Jews. YOU, show me how the Koran is misinterpreted, how it really doesn't say that, and I will retract EVERYTHING I have said about the Muslim faith.
Tim 1 year, 5 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
I just received this in an email, check it out:
http://openairseattleletters.blogspot.com/2010/08/blog-post.html
1 year, 4 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
"It teaches them to hate non-adherents, namely Christians and Jews." ...
God tortures non-adherents of christianity in a burning hell for all eternity. What does this teach? What kind of god would torture even innocent children for eternity? I believe your god is a sadistic murderer and a coward (since he won't show his face).
...
1 year, 4 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
I just received this in an email, check it out:
http://openairseattleletters.blogspot...
The fact that you receive stuff like this SHOWS YOUR BIAS, Tim.
Tim 1 year, 4 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
This is what I told Ferd who made the same claim about little children: " You don't know what Christians believe. This is why I keep waiting for an interpretation of the Koran because things can be hidden in the text that explain troubling things. The Bible has many passages that support the idea of an "age of consent" among children. I personally believe that Christ comes to all as children, it is the rejection of Him that causes ones soul to be lost. Little children don't have the knowledge of Him to reject Him, and most little children would embrace a loving Jesus anyway, until they are old enough to pursue worldly things. Most Christians do NOT believe God sends little children to hell. Some do, by their interpretation of the book they believe Jesus must be knowingly accepted for salvation and little children can't do that. I personally believe He created it He can do what He wants with it, meaning the whole world and the people too. But God keeps His word and I don't believe little children go to hell."
" I believe your god is a sadistic murderer and a coward (since he won't show his face). " I thought you didn't believe in Him. Make up your mind so I know how to answer you. Personally I would rather you hated Him than refused to believe. I understand being mad at God but I struggle with non-belief.
"The fact that you receive stuff like this SHOWS YOUR BIAS, Tim." I didn't know I was trying to hide my bias Me. Most of my communications are on matters of faith, is that a problem?
Tim 1 year, 4 months ago
Worship Centers – Who Decides
My sincere apologies! It wasn't Ferd, it was "Me (Iam Right)" who went to BOTH of the current threads I am discussing on and made the erroneous statement.
I'm glad you called me on that Ferd!
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