December 22, 2009
Brayden is one of the most interesting, intelligent, and creative human beings I know. She also happens to be my youngest friend. She is 8 years old, and more creative then most adults that I know. For the last 4 or 5 years she has begged her mother for a mohawk. Afraid that it was a decision she might later regret, her mother declined. That is until recently when she finally caved, and decided that years of persistent nagging from Brayden was evidence enough that she was ready and would not back down from it. If you knew Brayden, then you would know that the expression of her individuality is a very big deal, and not one that she will hold with any type of regret. As I have stated she is more creative then most adults that I know. We still laugh about her Tenacious D esque song, "rock and roll jaguar," that she wrote when she was 5. In which, she was a rock and roll jaguar and had the power to blow minds with her rock and roll guitar.
I point this out because it is important to let you know how free of a spirit this child has. This mohawk was much more to her then a hair cut. It was creative expression. A symbol of her boldness and courage. It was also "the best Christmas present in the whole wide world."
Sadly it was taken away from her by the school administration. The same administration that allows boys to show up to school with mohawks. When her mother protested their decision, they told her that there was a height requirement for mohawks. I'm not saying they are liars, but I sincerely find it hard to believe that such a rule exists. Their other argument was that it was a distraction from the learning process at Lewis and Clark elementary. I have a hard time believing that anyone with a rational mind honestly believes that it would be a distraction for more then a day or two, until the kids settled in and got used to it. A small price to pay when encouraging a child to be themselves. They suffer the same distraction every time a kid gets a hot new lunch box, or cool new jacket. The whole thing has broken her mothers heart. She has been made to feel like she is a bad mother for allowing her child to express her self in such a manner. I for one encourage her decision. I'm proud of her for being brave enough to stand up for her child and her right to be an individual.
The reason I thought this was important enough to write the paper about, wasn't just because I love Brayden and think the world of her. I also believe that this story symbolizes Wenatchee's view of of the youth in this town. Hasn't anyone ever wondered why the most intelligent and creative young people in Wenatchee seem to go away to college and never return. They never do seem to bring their creativity and knowledge back here. This has to take some kind of tole on the economy, and the night life in this town. Maybe that's why so many young adults in this town seem to be bored and and frustrated. You can hear their voices echo through out the valley, "I hate this place." Whenever I returned here from Seattle, "Why did you come back here?" and my only response, "because you're here."
Why do we not embrace these young people, and their creativity, and their ability to see things from a different perspective? Why don't we as a city provide an outlet for the rebellious, and the creative? It seems to me that we are more inclined to try and shut them up and push them under the rug. When we can't seem to do that we want to make them feel guilty for being different. I grew up in this town, and I promise you that the view I am expressing here is not mine alone. Let me be the first to say, "Let them be! You don't have to understand them! They aren't hurting anyone! Give them a place to go! Keep them in Wenatchee! Please, please let Brayden keep her Christmas present!"
If you don't agree with me that is fine, but at least let us make a discussion out of it. Don't just say no for the sake of saying no. Give Brayden a voice, and don't shame her mother for allowing her child to be an individual.
Comments
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LoPingFat (WES KING) says...
Wenatchee needs more like you and Brayden.
December 26, 2009 at 9:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
milo (Milo Klanke) says...
Schools are merely a reflection of a society more intent on enforcing conformity to arbitrary standards than encouraging freedom of expression and creativity.
December 26, 2009 at 10:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
Thank you, Wes. I'm sure it will make Brayden will appreciate your comments as well.
Milo, I couldn't have said it better myself. I honestly just feel like the kids need someone to stand up for them and say something about it every once in a while. Too many adults, don't.
December 26, 2009 at 12:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
Oh good grief! When I was in junior high school there was a strict limit on how long we boys could grow our hair. Since the Beatles were all the rage back at that time, all the boys wanted to join the mod squad and go long on hair. The Wenatchee Public School system said "no" and kids were sent home to get haircuts. The point is it didn't hurt us to have limits by which to live when we were that age.
So then, Brayden's mother let her have a mohawk at age 8 because she WANTED one??? Look, it doesn't hurt little boys or girls to WANT. Just tell them "no". It really is that simple. Now that the damage is done, don't blame the school system. Just accept that there are rules and regulations in place so that kids don't start doing their own thing beyond the point of no return. IMO, a mohawk on an 8 year old might be creative, but it also might be a cry for attention that needs serious consideration.
> Hasn't anyone ever wondered why the most intelligent and creative young people in Wenatchee seem to go away to college and never return. They never do seem to bring their creativity and knowledge back here.<
What I have noticed is that many young people can't wait to leave Wenatchee as soon as they graduate from high school. In fact, they often view HS graduation as their cue to get outta Dodge! So they leave to go away to college or see the world, but what I've also noticed is that after they leave here and eventually grow up, a great many of them return to raise their families. I think that says a lot about what our valley has to offer and I certainly hope we can keep it that way.
So, I suggest you meet with the school principal and see how you can make this work now that Brayden's hair has been shorn in such a way that it distracts her highly impressionable peers. Maybe she can don a wig until it grows out? Or maybe she can have her head completely shaved? Or maybe home schooling her until it grows out will be Mom's best option? Sorry, but I think the school system is on the right side of this one and maybe Mom should have consulted them first before she caved in to her daughter's desire to be noticed.
December 26, 2009 at 10:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Enesvy (Nicole Villacres) says...
Well, she has her mohawk...what is the school going to do about it? If they're asking her to grow it out, Brayden should simply enjoy it while she's got it. I doubt she's particularly looking for attention like Mav says--there's nothing wrong with a free-spirit. I do think it's a mountain out of a mole-hill, but it wouldn't have hurt for mom to check out the school rules before getting the hair cut done. Still, mom didn't do anything wrong. And her daughter can have a mohawk to her heart's content in the summertime. The reality is, we can't always have what we want--sometimes we have to wait; sometimes we don't get it at all. If Brayden is as full and free as you say, she can handle this refusal and patiently wait for summer to enjoy whatever hairstyle she wants to sport. :)
December 28, 2009 at 2:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
Can't wait for Brayden to nag her mom into agreement so she can get her nipples pierced or get a bone through her nose. :-) I find the most creative people are focused less on themselves and their appearence, and what they can accomplish or take on as project. I don't see a mohawk as a demonstration of a free spiritedness, but as just another example of childish spoiledness. Tsk!
December 28, 2009 at 3:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
There is a lot to address here and even though someone like martin might be trying to get under my skin by making such a jump as a mohawk to nipple piercings, (Now nipples piercings would only raise a stir in me because it is a good sign that there is a history of child abuse. As far as I know, no one has ever made that connection between an 8 year old and a mohawk.) this is the exact type of discussion I was hoping to bring about, and hope you will continue to discuss this with me. I will make the rest of my argument tomorow. I have spent the last 2 days in a car driving to sun valley to return my mother home after Christmas. You know what awful children us mohawked youth are.
December 28, 2009 at 10:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
anniebear (Annie Bear) says...
Way to go Brayden and her mom!! I agree hair grows back and she has wanted a mohawk since she was five. Big deal.It angers me that the WSD thinks this is a cause of distruption. Come on WSD fight the battles that mean something. Teach our Children to respect others for their differences and rejoice in the the similarities.
Jeremy thank you for giving Brayden and the rest of the children with fantastic and imaginative ideas a voice!!
I agree -WSD let Brayden keep her hair cut that she wanted and find some meaningful battle to fight like youth hunger
December 29, 2009 at 11:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Goldy (G oldy) says...
I wouldn't have let my daughter get a mohawk just because it's an ugly hairstyle! Doesn't matter if it's on a boy or girl. So she's creative - then sign her up for art lessons or dance lessons or acting or music lessons. Do the girl a favor and at this age, encourage her artistic abilities but in a way that won't cause others to think she's a weirdo because of an outlandish hairstyle. Save those for summer when the weirdos from Seattle return. LOL! Yeah.. I was kidding with my last remark.
Most hairstylists have many creative outlets and she sounds like a promising student for art lessons.
December 29, 2009 at 5:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
anniebear (Annie Bear) says...
G oldy so you think that people who don't share the same opinion as you in style are weirdos? WOW - what a closed mind you have. I can't believe you just called a little girl a weirdo and implied that others do to because she likes something different than you. Glad you are not my mother, aunt, sister or even grandma :)
December 30, 2009 at 11:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Goldy (G oldy) says...
I said the hairstyle was ugly. That's not being closed minded. Its close minded to think that I don't have a right to state my opinion of that hairstyle I also stated that 'others' would view her as a weirdo, because I know how mean kids can be with oddities on other kids. So what I said wasn't being closed minded at all - I was just stating what will happen and as a parent I'd want my child to not have to put up with unnecessary mean remarks from schoolmates that could affect her for many years to come. This same type of problem arose years ago when purple hair was popular with teens. She can still be artistic and an individual without a mohawk at this young age. She just might become our next Janis Joplin, but right now, I wouldn't let a child at that young age stand out so extreme that other parents won't want their child playing with her.
December 30, 2009 at 12:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I've made two different responses that for some reason didn't go through. I'm a little busy right this second but I wanted to say, that don't you think telling a kid how to be creative, and how to be an individual is a little counter intuitive? Don't you think that someone that lets their kid cut a mohawk into their head, would also try to culture their artistic expression in other forms as well?
December 30, 2009 at 1:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Goldy (G oldy) says...
Having raised my children in the Wenatchee School District, I can honestly tell you that a mohawk on a child as young as 8, in a classroom, will affect how that child is viewed not only by their classmates, but the parents of the classmates, and even the teachers. Since it sounds like she has already cultivated her artistic abilities, keep urging those areas to be developed, other than such an artificial one as a hairstyle. I'm speaking from my heart to help you protect the child from the cliques of parents who really will view this as a sign of bad parenting and will urge their child to not be friends. I've seen this done. And don't go accusing me of doing this, because I didn't. I allowed my daughter to do what was considered outlandish things with her hair, but it wasn't until high school. I just want you young parents to know what you are up against. Not only does your child need to learn to read, write and spell, but they need to not do things that encourage others to poke fun at them. I realize the mom really wants to give her daughter something that will make her happy.. but this is just an 8 year old. Kids have so many problems in their lives, why do one more thing that will cause them another snobbish remark behind their back? Its not going to make the parent look 'cool' to let their 8 year old wear a mohawk.
December 30, 2009 at 2:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
I have to agree with Mav on this one. Whatever the reason for the hairstyle is - actual creativity, or more likely, a cry for attention - it doesn't hurt an eight-year-old to be told NO.
<
Seems to me that not only has spanking become taboo, but not letting your child have everything they could possibly want is also becoming borderline-child-abuse. (I am 34 yrs old, BTW, so this is not an "old-person" point of view).
<
If the kid wants a mohawk, and the mother is okay with that, then let the kid have a mohawk. But in this case, it seems like the mother was NOT okay with it, but just gave in. How hard is it to say no? The kid can get as many mohawks as she wants at 18. Your job is to be the parent, not a best buddy.
December 30, 2009 at 3:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
".....don't you think telling a kid how to be creative, and how to be an individual is a little counter intuitive?"
Depends on the age of said child. I don't like parents who enter their children into child beauty pagents. Those parents dress their children up as sexualized ornaments all in the name of 'creativity' and letting the child be an 'individual'. Parents need to have the ability to look out for the best interest of the child INSPITE of what a child wants. To claim that a mohawk on a little girl adds to, or takes away from, 'creativity' is looking at attempting to rationale a potentially harmful parental decision. I see the cultivation of creativity in a child as an external exercise, rather than an issue of style.
December 30, 2009 at 3:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Martin said "Parents need to have the ability to look out for the best interest of the child INSPITE of what a child wants".
I agree. If the kid wanted to exhibit her "creativity" by boycotting jackets, then it would be a poor parenting decision to let the kid go outside in the winter without a jacket. It is no different to give in to the whim of an eight-year-old, who, even if she has wanted this haristyle for years, still has an under-developed maturity level and grasp of societal norms (i.e. how this will impact her place in society), and she has no idea how this will affect her development into an adult.
Whether a mohawk should be accepted by the school board or not is, IMO, of less consequence than the teasing by her peers, which WILL happen, no matter how "creative" she is.
December 30, 2009 at 3:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
where did we lose the argument for individuality here? Telling a kid they can't have a mohawk isn't awful, I never said that. In fact I said that she refused to give her the hair cut for 2 or 3 years. Still the child persisted. I'm not saying that she should get whatever she wants, and I'm sorry but I think that is a silly argument. I was, however; saying that Brayden shouldn't be insulted and made to feel small for her choice in haircut.
I appreciate marv and everyones responses both negative and positive. It was the exact purpose of this blog. A forum for discussion. I don't think that just because someone was told that they couldn't cut their hair like the Beatles, in the 60's, doesn't mean that it's an acceptable form of conformity now. Didn't we grow out of that kind of thing? There is so much to respond to and I will try to get here more frequently to respond.
gator, being 34 doesn't necessarily make you young. haha
December 30, 2009 at 3:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
letting a child die of hypothermia is nothing like letting a kid get a goofy haircut. I honestly believe that this kind of boldness is good for Brayden. Remember when you were a kid and your parents wouldn't let you do silly little things, and then you became a grown up and did those silly little things at an age that might have made it inappropriate?
Let me tell you that this little blog stirred up a big discussion at my christmas gathering this year, and I hope that it continues to be discussed here. I truly appreciate everyones input.
December 30, 2009 at 3:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Goldy (G oldy) says...
We did seem to zero in on the hairstyle and skimmed over your excellent question of :
<
" Why do we not embrace these young people, and their creativity, and their ability to see things from a different perspective? Why don't we as a city provide an outlet for the rebellious, and the creative? It seems to me that we are more inclined to try and shut them up and push them under the rug."
<
Artistic doesn't mean rebellious, I think we can all agree on this. But what outlet is there? Physical outlet for one thing. Snowboarding, soccer, skateboarding..
music lessons, because all kids want to grow up to be the next rock star, and they need to learn to play an instrument first. Art classes... many different types of art classes. Artistic people do tend to view life in a different way, and find conformity a struggle. Do they lean more towards the evening high schools later in life? Do more end up in beauty schools?
December 30, 2009 at 3:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Jeremy,
I appreciate your point of view, but the point I was trying (probably poorly) to make concerning the hypothermia thing was that this girl thinks that having a mohawk would be cool, but no one, especially an eight-year-old, can foresee the impact that the teasing and ridiculing will have on them.
Whether it is the way it should be in our society or not, a mohawk is not a common haircut for an 8 year old girl, and being different for whatever reason equates to ridicule in grade school (and high school, and college, and ...)
I'm willing to bet that the other 8 year olds aren't going to post a blog on the Wenatchee World to debate whether they should tease her or not.
December 30, 2009 at 4:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
And Jeremy, when I was in high school, I thought 30 was old, too.
December 30, 2009 at 4:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I'm 29 years old. I didn't say you were old, but you are no spring chicken.
Brayden can handle being made fun of a little here and there, and she is so outspoken that she pulled the hairstyle off. The kids loved it as far as I know. The fact that she can handle the little bit of teasing will only make her stronger in the long run. In my opinion anyway.
I really want to get more into the long winded reply by marv but I don't think he is around anymore.
it's hard to reply to them all.
December 30, 2009 at 4:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
as far as outlets, there is very little to do when kids get older. Live all ages shows get shut down everywhere in town. We once had the Franklin house and they turned it into a bus stop. We had the IOOF hall and they stopped renting to us. We had the something river theater or whatever it was called, and they got shut down. The grange got shut down. Everywhere we have ever put on shows we have been kicked out of. Not to mention the impossible noise ordinance that says you can't play live music anywhere in the city, unless the city puts it on. Most kids around here can't even find a place to practice. I have friends that live by the high school and whenever they try to practice, someone calls the cops. Yet when the high school band plays a million times louder, it's ok. I know I am being one dimensional by only talking about music here, but I'm trying to make a point. And the point is, kids aren't welcome here, unless they are joe sport or singing the praises of god.
December 30, 2009 at 5:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
anniebear (Annie Bear) says...
Jermey - I have to agree - there is very little in terms of affordable outlets for our children here. Everything is becoming so expensive and yes it is revolved around sports. I suggest that you try to talk to an owner of one of the old warehouses downtown. We jam in one and as long as we keep the doors shut noone calls the cops. I think you should put together a business plan and describe how it would be monitored, the activities that would be offered, and how it will benefit the community by embracing the talents of our youth. You never know it could become a great business down the road.
I for one promote my children to be individuals also and to embrace the kids that ridicule - yes kids are mean but I have found that the root of their meanness are their parents who are much worse!!!!
G oldy - you may not have been a mean parent but to even think that the outside of a person (looks, clothing hairstyle) determines the inside( personality, warmth, talents, attitude) is close minded and kids get that from their parents. As parents we need to teach our children acceptance.
Mav - I agree kids need to hear NO more often, but I disagree that this falls into the catagory of a kid getting everything and never hears no - She heard no for 2-3 years for this and they finally felt she was mature enough to pull it off and deal with the not so friendly or nice comments. I think the parents need to be allowed to parent and if that means a funky hairdo then so be it, our school admin should not dictate what hairstyles are allowed and not allowed.
December 31, 2009 at 10:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jen (Jen B.) says...
Annie Bear has a good idea.
It's great that Brayden's mom is so open-minded. I'm sure letting her kid finally get a mohawk doesn't mean she also lets her kid run wild and gives her whatever she wants.
Life as an adult is pretty much no fun. You dress like everybody else, you work your butt off, you go to bed early. You do what's expected. So why not let the little girl do these unexpected things now before she ends up conforming to the rest of us in the 'real' world? Let her express herself while she has no responsibility to do anything but be a kid.
Besides, it could have been a good lesson in consequences if she ended up hating the haircut. ;)
December 31, 2009 at 10:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>She heard no for 2-3 years for this and they finally felt she was mature enough to pull it off and deal with the not so friendly or nice comments. I think the parents need to be allowed to parent and if that means a funky hairdo then so be it, our school admin should not dictate what hairstyles are allowed and not allowed.<
Annie, imo, an eight year old isn't socially mature enough for much of anything. I also do not believe she heard a definitive "NO" from her mother because if she had, she would not have persisted for another three years to get her way.
December 31, 2009 at 11:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
►I think the parents need to be allowed to parent and if that means a funky hairdo then so be it,◄
Annie, I agree wholeheartedly with that comment. However, in very much the same way, we also have to respect the Wenatchee School District and allow them to do their job as well. You see, it works both ways in this instance and even as adults we also have to recognize that there will be times that we can't have everything we want either. When Brayden's mom finally said "YES" to Brayden's demand for a funky hairdo, then mom turned around and expected the school district to say "YES" also. Sorry, but it doesn't hurt little girls to be told "NO" and in this case it won't hurt a little big girl to be told "NO" by the school district either. As adults we all make parenting mistakes and if Brayden's mother is smart, she will explain to Brayden that a mistake was made in allowing this particular haircut because it violated the school rules. She should also explain to Brayden that the school rules need to be respected because they exist for the benefit of all students and that all students AND PARENTS must obey them. Brayden's mom should go on to explain that she did not know that the school had this particular policy, but now that she is aware of it they must both move on and respect the policy going forward. What Brayden's mother must not do is tell Brayden that the school district policy is wrong or that it can be ignored. That would send the wrong message entirely. School district rules are in place for the benefit of all parents and students alike. Without those rules our public schools' learning and social structure would be undermined.
Children learn about social rules and regulations while growing up in public schools and that prepares them for life as an adult. The worst thing a parent can do in the eyes of their child, imo, is disrespect generally accepted school policies. If you want to change school policy then join the PTA and voice your opinion and do what you can to bring about constructive change and also allow your child to see how you go about doing that in the right way as an adult. Everything we do as parents instills a course of action in our kids and it gives them a road map for the future--their future. Life is a continuum and old habits die hard for that very reason, but good habits and good constructs will also prevail if we parents set that example early on. The good news is it's never too late to change course and it's never too late to do the right thing.
Happy New Year to all!
December 31, 2009 at 11:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
anniebear (Annie Bear) says...
Mav - you are correct and I apologize. Mom should have checked with the school district policy. See my son two tears ago did a reverse mohawk and three years ago had a mohawk and no one in the school said anything about policy being broken - yes we are in the WSD. So see I was really writing that she was single out because of her gender and well I hope you see that I agree with your points - and I also agree that the parents should support the WSD policy as long as it is in place for ALL. Your points are valid.
I however disagree that an 8 year old is not mature. As we age we also acquire different maturity levels. I do think that some 8 years old are mature enough to handle ridicule and stick up for them selves. Also I have told my children NO and guess what they would ask a year later and a year later and on some things I felt they could handle - but some no way not until they are on their own. But we are entitle to our own opinions :)
December 31, 2009 at 12:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Enesvy (Nicole Villacres) says...
I'd just like to clarify--we are talking about an actual mohawk where the head is completely shaved except for the strip down the middle? Because if we're talking about a fauxhawk (not completely shaved) that's a different thing and if the boys are allowed to do it, I figure the girls should be also--tis just the day and age we live in. So do the boys have a true mohawk and Brayden, too?
.
However, I fully agree with Mav that if you want to change the rules, you can't just complain about them. You must set aside time to get involved, attend public meetings, and work to change the policy. Otherwise, you just have to abide by the rules.
.
Anniebear said, "G oldy - you may not have been a mean parent but to even think that the outside of a person (looks, clothing hairstyle) determines the inside( personality, warmth, talents, attitude) is close minded." Goldy wasn't saying that's how she thinks; she was saying that's how the human race has worked it since its been in existence. So read a little more carefully before you judge. Goldy's main concern is that Brayden not be thrown to the wolves and get hurt by her peers. Trust me, one day, Brayden will run into ridicule that will hurt her--she's not bullet-proof. Goldy was just surprised that protecting her from that didn't appear to be on the mom's radar. I'm not saying it wasn't, but from the discussion so far, I haven't seen it.
December 31, 2009 at 1:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>But we are entitle to our own opinions :)<
Annie, my wife always tells me that I'm entitled to my own opinion just as long as it agrees with hers. Since I know what's good for me, it usually does. :-)
December 31, 2009 at 2:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>I'd just like to clarify--we are talking about an actual mohawk where the head is completely shaved except for the strip down the middle?<
By definition:
http://www.answers.com/topic/mohawk-h...
December 31, 2009 at 2:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Merryraven (Katy Sessions) says...
I'm not sure about the mohawk on an 8 year old, boy or girl. I don't care for it but then I come from a different generation.
I do know that hair is just hair.
About 12 years ago when my daughter was 15 had her hair dyed orange. She got a nose ring. She wore some weird clothes. She is creative also. It didn't seem to hurt her.
Kids sometimes need to be outside the herd, individuals.
Yes the mother should have checked with the school, but I am not sure I would have done. I would have thought I was a matter of personal choice such as dying hair orange.
I think the school district handled it badly too. Why did they resort to suspension. This could have been a lesson in tolerance for everyone.
Okay, I admit to freaking out when the same daughter at 21 years old got a tattoo. I got over it.
January 1, 2010 at 9:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ynkeeraidr (Brad Whitehall) says...
We are discussing a hairstyle. Someone please tell me how the length, style, color, of one's hair, affects the learning process. From what I have read, it sounds like she has a strong enough personality to deal with her peers acceptance or ridicule. A height limit on a certain style of haircut is insanely stupid. Say we have an 8 year old with an overactive pituitary gland, and is six feet tall. This child can wear a mohawk, but the 4 foot tall 8 year old child cannot. Its just hair. Get over it.
January 1, 2010 at 2:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I have to clarify that the school didn't not suspend her, though I am sure that would have been the obvious punishment had her mom not taken care of the situation.
I honestly don't think that it is a huge deal, but I think it is a important that people open their minds, and I think it is highly important to cultivate that type of individuality in a country that is obsessed with conformity so much to the point that, with the assistance of corperate america, we all dress the same, watch the same thing on tv, listen to the same music, and every small town looks exactly the same. Wal Mart Mcdonalds, 7 - 11
January 1, 2010 at 5:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>I have to clarify that the school didn't not suspend her,<
Okay, so why did you type this in your OP above:
►It was also "the best Christmas present in the whole wide world."
Sadly it was taken away from her by the school administration.◄
So how did the school administration take Brayden's mohawk away after the fact?
January 1, 2010 at 6:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
where do you see the word suspension in that sentence?
I am not fully understanding what you are trying to ask me marv.
They had her mother come down to the school to take care of it... I already said this.
I did write a long diatribe addressing you the other day, but it failed to go though for whatever reason.
I would like to say that just because kids weren't allowed to have Beatles haircuts in the 60's doesn't mean that the school has any right to worry about what a kid does with their hair today. It was wrong then just as it is wrong now, and I would like to think we have made some advancements as people since that time, maybe because of that time.
January 2, 2010 at 11:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
Also, I am well aware of what an actual mohawk is. I had once myself a few times. It is a mohawk, not a faux-hawk
January 2, 2010 at 11:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>I am not fully understanding what you are trying to ask me marv.
They had her mother come down to the school to take care of it... I already said this.<
How did Brayden's mother "take care of it"?
January 2, 2010 at 12:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
she got rid of the hair do.
January 2, 2010 at 1:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
> I had once myself a few times.<
Well, I had twice myself several times. ;-P
January 2, 2010 at 8:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Enesvy (Nicole Villacres) says...
Er...how do you get rid of a mowhawk? Is Brayden running around with a shaved head? She sounds spunky enough to pull it off. :)
January 2, 2010 at 9:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
My bad. I have ADD and don't usually edit my responses. Brayden is forced to wear it flat on her head which looks really silly, but yes... She pulls it off because she is who she is. She calls it her slicky.
She was bummed about not being able to wear it the way she wanted, but she has dealt with it pretty well. She deals with everything pretty well. If she has to shave it, she will deal with that well too. The kid is amazing.
Let me say, that my point is not whether or not a child can handle a stupid dress code which forces a kid into what some teacher thinks is acceptable instead of what her mother finds acceptable. My point is that she shouldn't have to. I can understand if a kid is wearing beer advertisements or something of that nature, because they are helping market to other children and parents have the right to protect their children from that type of thing. But what is a mohawk going to hurt anybody? I would assume that it would hurt nothing.
The question here is why? Why do they think it is necessary? What is the motive, and what gives them a right to tell the mother of this child that she is a bad mother for letting the kid have a mohawk. In fact that is one thing I left out. The teacher did make a blatant comment about the mothers parenting. I don't remember what it is, but if anyone is that curious I will ask her.
January 3, 2010 at 11:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Resident (Resi Dent) says...
The justification for any dress code requirements centers on safety or a distraction away from learning. Teachers have to enforce the district's policy created/approved by the school board, essentially meaning that representatives of the community made it or endorsed it.
.
A haircut should result in any comment on a parent's effectiveness, but teachers are powerless to decide individually determine the dress code. If people want to change the dress code, then that has to be taken up with the school board.
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I find it hard to believe that a mohawk is much of a distraction, but I guess young kids might have a problem with it. They can latch onto something and kick it around for a long time.
I wonder if the dress code is online. Has anyone checked?
January 3, 2010 at 11:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Resident (Resi Dent) says...
I took a quick look at the WSD dress code policy on the district website and only saw two lines that could possibly relate to this situation (none dealing specifically with hair). I'm not sure if individual schools further define what is acceptable or not.
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One way to violate the policy is if "A material and substantial disruption of the educational process will result from the students’ dress or appearance."
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The only other line I found that might allow the district to request a hairstyle change is "Prohibited conduct includes the use of obscene, sexual, drug or alcohol-related messages, gang-related apparel, or dress of the opposite sex" if the haircut is determined to be a male haircut and a girl dons it.
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Both I think are quite flimsy extrapolations of the dress code policy, but that's all I saw. If you are serious about fighting this, go to the school board. Otherwise, nothing will change.
January 3, 2010 at 11:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>A haircut should result in any comment on a parent's effectiveness,<
Well, I disagree with you there, Resi. It wouldn't be my style to allow a mohawk on my child, but it's still possible that a mother who allows one on her child can still be a good mother. I am surprised that the teacher made a "blatant comment about the mothers parenting", but here again without knowing exactly what the comment was or the context in which it was made, it's difficult to draw any conclusion without all the facts.
January 3, 2010 at 11:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
Resident, could you send me a link? I am not a parent and I am pretty unfamiliar with alot of the going on's of the school board. It is possible that I made some of this in haste with out doing much research, but it doesn't sound like I was very far off.
mav I will ask the mother what it was exactly. I shouldn't have said that with out fully remembering what it was the teacher had said.
January 3, 2010 at 3:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I found the policy and it appears that the problem with it is, it's vague, real vague, and left up to the teachers interpretation. Here it is for anyone interested.
STUDENT SERVICES
STUDENT DRESS
Preserving a beneficial learning environment and assuring the safety and well being of all
students are primary concerns of the board of directors.
Students' choices in matters of dress should be made in consultation with their parents.
Student dress shall only be regulated when, in the judgment of school administrators, there
is a reasonable expectation that:
A. A health or safety hazard shall be presented by the student's dress or appearance;
B. Damage to school property shall result from the student's dress; or
C. A material and substantial disruption of the educational process will result from the
students' dress or appearance.
For the purpose of this policy, a material and substantial disruption of the educational
process may be found to exist when a student's conduct is inconsistent with any part of the
educational mission of the school district. Prohibited conduct includes the use of obscene,
sexual, drug or alcohol-related messages, gang-related apparel; or dress of the opposite sex.
The superintendent shall establish procedures providing guidance to students and staff
regarding appropriate student dress in school or while engaging in extracurricular activities.
Such procedures shall ensure that any student wearing, carrying, or displaying gang-related
apparel, or exhibiting behavior or gestures which symbolize gang membership, or causing
and/or participating in activities which intimidate or affect the attendance of another student
shall be asked to make appropriate corrections and subject to discipline if the corrections are
not undertaken.
January 3, 2010 at 4:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>mav I will ask the mother what it was exactly. I shouldn't have said that with out fully remembering what it was the teacher had said. <
That's okay, Jeremy. What was said between the teacher and mother is probably best left alone and really is immaterial anyway. The bottom line is that we are a nation of laws and our public school system relies on a body of rules and regulations. We can view these rules and regulations as unnecessary, stupid, excessive or whatever adjective you prefer. However, we still have to obey and respect those rules no matter how frustrating they are to live with. It's just the nature of the world we live in. Sometimes common sense seems to get lost in the process of making rules, but that certainly doesn't mean we can ignore them. Lobbying for change by joining the PTA and making your voice heard is your best hope of getting rules changed, but even then you will be subject to the majority view and if others don't agree with you then you will likely be unsuccessful. The upside to all of this is that kids tend to adapt to the real world and bounce back from setbacks much better than we adults do.
January 3, 2010 at 5:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I haven't heard back from the mother yet, but i feel it is a highly important part of the story that was left out. I cannot join the PTA I am not a parent so my hands are tied here, but if this blog has gotten any parents more willing to assert themselves to say something or do something like join the PTA then it was a success. This blog here is about the extent of what I knew I could do as a single male with no children.
I am not sure if I had mentioned it yet but when I was in 7th grade at sterling middle school I was dragged by my hair from the locker rooms to the vice principals office by one vice principal Mr. Tumblin.
If I knew the majority of parents would argue against me then I would admit a defeat, but I don't know that. All I know is that the school decided to and insulted the mother and her child in the process. I don't know many people that would think to "check with the school" before they gave their kid a haircut. When I went to elementary school in Seattle, kids shaved lines into their mullets and got Bosworth esque mohawks, and everyone still seemed to learn just fine. Those haircuts or the rat-tail haircut seem much more disturbing to me personally, but they were all left alone. I wonder how they would have dealt with a girl with one of those haircuts.
January 3, 2010 at 5:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Resident (Resi Dent) says...
My bad, Mav. I left out "not." That line should have read "A haircut should not result in any comment on a parent's effectiveness."
January 3, 2010 at 8:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I think mav knew that.
January 4, 2010 at 11:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kaylavw (K VW) says...
Jeremy,
I know your point and as a mother, can understand the ease of helping your child express their creativity... however, I was expressive as a middle schooler and regret it now.
-
I had the bottom half of my head shaved and wore the skater outfits and soon after was known as a drugy. This stayed with me all through high school and my friend's parents hated me because of my clothing choices from middle school... when in reality I was the only one of my "well-behaved" friends who didn't drink or do drugs in high school.
-
There are consequences for actions, whether fair or not, and I'm not sure an 8 year old is able to understand that. Sadly, looks matter, and it's different for girls than for boys.
January 4, 2010 at 12:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Again, I agree with Mav. I think that the school board needs to set certain policy as a means of controlling and maintaining the social norm in their environment.
Sure, this is only a hairdo, but what happens - if they give in to the harido, that in five years down the road when some 8-year-old gets a full-body tattoo? And then, by giving in to that breach of policy, five years later, some kid comes to school naked?
Obviously, these are totally different levels of "creativity", but my point is that the WSD has the power and the right to set their own rules and not bend on them, for fear that setting a precedent of "giving in" will just lead to more and more pushing of what is acceptable.
Like Mav said, being disrespectful of the WSD by complaining just sets a bad example - the WSD has every right to make the rules as they are.
January 5, 2010 at 8:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
"school board needs to set certain policy as a means of controlling and maintaining the social norm" Doesn't statements like that feel like.... A little Orwellian or Brave New Worldish?
-
I really can't understand when people want to tie one mild thing to some huge ordeal that will never in all likeliness happen. A haircut is only hair and there are no victims. If someone streaks naked there are laws against it, because there are victims. It's a form of sexual assault. It is also illegal to tattoo an 8 year old. There are laws that prevent this from happening, because we as a society have decided that 8 year olds aren't old enough to make a decision that will be with them for the rest of their lives.
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Also, there is no precedent set. I posted the rules and all they said was that it was up to the teacher. What precedent is that?
January 5, 2010 at 12:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
"being disrespectful of the WSD by complaining just sets a bad example - the WSD has every right to make the rules as they are." - sorry but the whole "follow the heard" speech should have died when we came to this country. Isn't that the kind of ideals that our forefathers came here to move away from.
We live in America and we are suppose to complain when we feel there is an injustice being done. This might be a small one, but it's obviously important to someone. What the school system is saying here is that, if you are different, you are wrong. Brayden is not wrong and neither is her mother.
January 5, 2010 at 12:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
"I really can't understand when people want to tie one mild thing to some huge ordeal that will never in all likeliness happen. A haircut is only hair and there are no victims. If someone streaks naked there are laws against it, because there are victims. It's a form of sexual assault. It is also illegal to tattoo an 8 year old. There are laws that prevent this from happening, because we as a society have decided that 8 year olds aren't old enough to make a decision that will be with them for the rest of their lives".
Your point here is an attempt to argue, but your comment just makes my point further. Obviously and as I stated, I realize that a hairdo and being naked are two very different things. And yes, tattooing an 8-year-old is illegal. My point was merely a metaphor for the progression of things that seem to become "okay" in our society, little by little. In the '50's, actors on TV were not allowed to say "butt" on network television, and we all know where that has gone.
My examples weren't relevant - my point was that the school board has the right to decide what may or may not lead to more questionable issues down the road.
(p.s. Jeremy, are you sure you know what "precedent" means? If this specific issue was allowed in the past - that would be setting a precedent - so you are right, there has been no precedent set. That's what I said - that the WSD may think that setting this precedent - allowing the mohawk - would be bad)
January 5, 2010 at 1:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
"...if you are different, you are wrong" - Again, in a democratic society, everyone has an equal opinion. Therefore, you don't think a mohawk on an eight-year-old is wrong. But what happens when someone else is afraid that her look will distract or annoy other students - so, to that person, a mohawk IS wrong. And your opinion is no more or less important than anyone else's.
BTW, obviously I can't speak for other parents, but personally I don't care whatsoever what the Seattle school districts allow in their schools. That's a big reason I live here - because it's NOT Seattle.
January 5, 2010 at 1:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
My point was that it was a silly metaphor from a paranoid view. The beautiful thing about network television is that you can change the channel at any second. Really though? Yeah, it's a shame that they can say, "butt." on t.v. They really should have held their ground there. The bottom line is if you don't like it then turn away.
I know what precedent means, and the only precedent that was set was set by allowing boys to have mohawks. They called her out on the length of it. the only confusion I had was that it seemed like you were saying that they had already set a precedent about what length of a mohawk was acceptable.
I'm pretty sure that their were bullets with racing stripes shaved into boys heads in the 80's here as well as seattle. In fact I know there was cause I moved here in 89.
January 5, 2010 at 4:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
"The bottom line is if you don't like it then turn away."
No offense, Jeremy, but this is a stupid argument in relation to the topic at hand. Sure you can turn away from the TV, but the teacher and peers in her classroom are going to have a much harder time trying not to look at a student with a big mohawk while you're trying to take a test.
Maybe some or her classmates won't care whatsoever. Some kids will get over it a day. But some may have never seen anything like that, and it will amaze/confuse/distract them for weeks or more.
To this, of course, you will say "then why does this bother those people?" But to tell someone to ignore something is easier said than done sometimes, don't you think?
January 6, 2010 at 11:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
BTW, I'm not some Ned Flanders, Bible-thumper. I don't care about the mohawk myself. I just think that attacking the WSD for making a rule that they felt was for the good of the many, at the expense of one, is wrong.
I know it's not quite the same thing, but, to me, this smacks of the same argument as the very small minority who are offended by a Christmas tree display at a gov't building. Why does the tree need to be taken down to satisfy a minuscule percentage of the population?
January 6, 2010 at 11:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
The reason my argument is relevant is because you made that connection. If you want to use that as an example I will show you why I believe that you are wrong. I'm sorry but the fact that you think kids are going to be amazed and confused by a mohawk for weeks is pretty strange and oddly funny to me. They have all the attention span of a fruit fly.
You really don't see why the christmas display shouldn't be removed? A little thing called, "separation of church and state." The freedom of religion in America is compromised when the state starts celebrating the birth of "gods son." You seem like a pretty intelligent person, so I shouldn't have to explain to you the importance of the separation of church and state, do I? I would be more then happy to if you like. At least I will try to the best of my ability.
January 8, 2010 at 6:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
William (William Miller) says...
A Mohawk? God forbid!
Individuality in Amerika must not be tolerated. All people must wear the same clothes, listen to the same music, believe the same religion, have the same thoughts.
Allowing an unusual hairstyle in our schools is a slippery slope. Next the kids will want their nipples pierced and to mate with barnyard animals while high on heroin.
Any deviation must be punished swiftly and firmly. A public stoning would be appropriate. Beheading for purple or green dyed hair is not out of line.
Imagine what would have happened if we had been allowed to form thoughts of our own when we were actually capable of thinking for ourselves???
I'll tell you what would have happened. We never would have unthinkingly supported our military-industrial complex, sending our young people to be killed and maimed fighting imaginary boogie men, while we get fatter and dummer watching tv and munching cheetos.
God forbid there be mohawks in school.
January 10, 2010 at 4:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Person (Per Son) says...
I am all for individuality, but this particular mohawk was a distraction, big time. I saw it. No need to say more, but we aren't talking like a few inches here... To connect this to gender inequality would only be fair if the males were displaying mohawks of the same size. Sometimes details make all the difference.
January 14, 2010 at 9:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
I agree, Person. Jeremy doesn't seem to be able to understand any point of view other than his own. But, if YOU think this is distracting, what do you think will happen to the other eight-years-olds in her class, whom have likely never seen anything like that before?
I, personally don't care what kids look like, but my daughter can't stay focused for two minutes on school work if a bird flies by the window. And her classmates are no different (granted, she's 6, not 8, but there isn't that much maturing happening in two years). I wouldn't be happy if she went to that school, because the last thing she needs is a big, flaming distraction to further hinder her attention span.
So again, IMO, the needs of the many should outweigh the needs of the few, no matter how vocal the few are.
January 15, 2010 at 9:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NoRegrets (No Regrets) says...
Honestly I didn't finish reading all the comments so if I repeat other's sentiments I apologize. I have four boys. Two of them sport a faux-hawk. I love it. I want them to express themselves. On the flip side, they also earn that freedom. If their school work in any way goes down (not due to hair but brains) then they lose those privileges. I must admit it is the LAST resort punishment, but it works. I've always encouraged my sons to express themselves as long as it's not hurting themselves or others. I like that they are individuals and not part of the "crowd". My oldest son is graduating this year. He has good grades and is in the AVID program at the high school. He started a dance club, works part time at the middle school and participates in Apple Blossom and fundraisers. He also plays the guitar and writes lyrics. My second son that sports a "messy" faux-hawk is a freshman. He does dance, is participating in an upcoming fundraiser, has good grades, is learning to play the piano, and is the most responsible 14yr old I know. All my sons are exposed to everything from opera to funk and love musicals. I talk to them about everything from current events to environmental issues. And believe me, I encourage them to debate me and prove me wrong with their research. This said, at age 8 I didn't give the kids that option. But for all I know, the little girl is way more mature than my boys were at that age. Either way, it's not my place to judge, I’m just giving my opinion.
January 15, 2010 at 10:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
researcher (R searcher) says...
I am not from Wenatchee and I do not know the author of this post or the girl, Brayden. I found this post whilst conducting research about how appearences can affect the preconcieved notions others can have about a person. And in my honest and most heartfelt opintion, some of you are in need of one serious reality check. I mean really people, WHAT THE HELL!? That goes out to everyone who says that the school administration is in the right for forcing this young girl to alter her appearence based on a policy probably created for much more extreem violations on thier dress code. This young girl is eight years old and has every right to express herself in whatever way she needs to in order to feel good about herself. Her mother did the right thing by having her daugher wait before the decision, and after a few years without any change of opinion from Brayden, letting her daughter proceed was the best choice. Having the support of a parent on this type of decision creates a strong bond between child and guardian that fosters the growth of trust in the relationship. As long as this hairstyle isn't physically causing pain to the other students at the school, what the hell is the problem here? Where I currently go to high school (in Massachusetts), I know people with hair that is a different color every week and spiked in every direction. Does it detract from thier character? Absolutly not. And I understand that Brayden is much younger than 17, but she is still entitled to protray herself anyway she needs to. The distraction of other students is not a sound excuse to tell her to change her appereance again. The novelty in the change in her looks would wear off in a day or two, and at age eight, these kids are not learning vital information that could affect their future. So, a youthful distraction might be a good thing. I hope that some of you people in this town become a little more open minded; it's because of people like you that prejudices still exist.
Take care,
Taylor - Massachusetts
January 15, 2010 at 1:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>I, personally don't care what kids look like, but my daughter can't stay focused for two minutes on school work if a bird flies by the window. And her classmates are no different (granted, she's 6, not 8, but there isn't that much maturing happening in two years). I wouldn't be happy if she went to that school, because the last thing she needs is a big, flaming distraction to further hinder her attention span.<
Speaking of big, flaming distractions, have you ever done any bird watching by the sea? ;-D
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_brIyg5OdFyg...
January 15, 2010 at 2 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
researcher (R searcher) says...
if you, mavulous, mean me, then sort of. I can see the ocean from my house and walk my dog to the beach every day. as for the birds, uh, they (in my opinion) are like rats with wings. I like to watch the seals and whales when I'm working (I work seasonally on a tuna boat).
Just on a personal note from me-
when I was in 2nd grade, my teacher asked my mom to have me professionally looked at for ADHD because of short commings in my attention span and because my dad has a bunch of learning disabilities like that. my mother never had me tested because that kind of thing comes with such a label that wouldn't have been good for my self esteem. that teacher put me in remedial classes for the next year (which have plagued me to this day). Now I am in all AP classes and am looking at a promising future, no thanks to that teacher. I guess what I'm saying is that being easily distracted at that age really doesn't affect your future if you don't let it. And I think that a unique hairstyle just isn't something that would be a long term distraction. Besides, the teachers dealing with students at this age level should have had special training in their masters programs to deal with classroom management and overcomming distractions.
January 16, 2010 at 1:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>(I work seasonally on a tuna boat).<
Tell me about that, researcher. What kind of tuna do you go after? Longfin?
January 16, 2010 at 5:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
researcher (R searcher) says...
Bluefin. It gets really messy and gross, seeing as I'm the "bait/gut girl", (meaning it is my job to live wire the pogies and then bleed and gut the fish once it's on board, and even fillet it if it is too small to sell comercially) but getting to see the marine wildlife makes the job worth it. leaving for the marina at 4 am is also a challenge, but like I said, for me, it's worth it. Getting the exposure to the catch regulations is important to me, as I hope to be a marine biologist someday.
January 16, 2010 at 9:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
Well, good for you! I hope you enjoy marine biology and can make a career out of it.
So are you still able to catch bluefin in large quantities or are their numbers dwindling? How about the catch limits?
January 17, 2010 at 5:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
researcher (R searcher) says...
this past season, the same school of fish came back from down south, so there were less of them, but they were bigger. the catch limits for charters like us are pretty strict; we can only take one fish from each class (sometimes two under special circumstance) and only one giant per season. Commercial fisherman aren't allowed to catch these fish in large numbers like baitfish in a net. Unfortunatly, a lot of people break this rule, especially fisherman from the UK in international waters. They catch entire schools in large nets, which is the biggest problem contributing to the bluefin population.
Luckily, recent studues have showed that the tuna that come to stellwagen don't have as much as a set migration pattern as previously thought. So the fish could possibly come from all over. (I think) it mostly depends on what they're feeding on.
January 17, 2010 at 7:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
Your bluefin seem to range over a pretty wide area of the globe and you're probably right that they are following the baitfish of their choice. The fact that they are also warm blooded allows them to adapt to just about any water that has something on their menu. Ah, the sea, the ultimate protein factory. Watch out for the mercury in that tuna steak, though. They live for years and it tends to accumulate in a long lived fish. So tell me, researcher, what's the biggest bluefin to hit the deck of your boat? I want to read some good fish stories from someone that's been there and done that! :-D
January 17, 2010 at 10:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
researcher (R searcher) says...
I've never been on board to see a giant come up. I broke my wrist on the job two seasons ago and on the next trip they caught a 631 lb fish. The fish I've seen come up range mostly from 90 to 200 lbs, only some just a tad bigger. Even when a "small" tuna hits the line, it's like attaching the bait to a car on the highway. When the big one hit, I heard that they were pretty close to losing the fish because it ran so much line out. I've never asked about what the biggest fish Joe (the captain, my boss) has ever landed in his life, but I think I will the next time I see him.
January 18, 2010 at 9:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
"The distraction of other students is not a sound excuse to tell her to change her appereance again."
I beg to differ. The practice of required uniforms in school has been used in schools for centuries, and is slowly increasing in popularity in private schools again for this very reason. Whether this is deemed a good thing or a bad thing, it shows that places other than just our little podunk town have similar concerns.
January 18, 2010 at 11:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Speaking of big, flaming distractions, have you ever done any bird watching by the sea? ;-D
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_brIyg5OdFyg...
Holy crap, mav! What kinda birds are those?
January 18, 2010 at 11:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
Gator, I have listened to other peoples opinions, and gave my response through personal experience and facts of the event at hand. Whose opinion were you open to listening to? I know what you are saying and I have given reasons why I think that you are wrong.
Researcher, This town is oppressive to it's youth that they consider to be, "strange" I have been through it and so have most of my friends. If you ask any kid in this town with freaky hair or odd clothes, how they feel about the treatment they receive here for being different, I am sure they would all give the same complaint. I would also pretty much guarantee that this treatment has a direct affect on them pushing it to the limit, and seeing just how far they can take it.
People still seem to think that if you don't fit into the mold then you must have a mental disorder of some sort. Nevermind that other cultures around the world think completely differently than we.
January 18, 2010 at 1:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
researcher (R searcher) says...
Gator, this is a PUBLIC school. It is reasonable for PRIVATE schools to ask that their students wear uniforms because they are NOT state funded. Public schools ARE state funded, meaning that they are required to provide an education to every legal citizen of the united states no matter what their appearence might be. My High School's disclaimer:
Marshfield Public School District does not discriminate on the basis of race, gender, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, disability, appearance or age, in programs, activities or employment.
JeremyLogan, I'm sorry to hear that so many people out in Wenatchee (Washington?) are so closed minded. I hope that changes for you and Brayden soon.
January 18, 2010 at 4:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Jeremy, I will give you props for sticking to your point of view.
I guess, in the end, that's all it comes down to is a simple point of view, and mine differs from yours. I see your point, I just disagree.
I think you are going a little overboard, stating that "This town is oppressive to it's youth that they consider to be, "strange" - it is a far different thing, in my mind, to be unaccepting of someone's "look at me" attention-getting attempts (by looking "strange"), than to be unaccepting of someone's race or creed. Shouldn't the term "oppression" be reserved for a more important subject?
It seems a little melodramatic to say "strange"-looking people are oppressed in our town - nobody is making them look "strange" but themselves. Unlike race, sexuality, etc - this "lifestyle choice" really IS a choice. If its really THAT bad, then just don't wear a mohawk.
In other words, the WSD is not some archaic, apartheid-type, segregated, closed-minded entity that your buddy researcher is portraying, just because it may be a little more conservative than you want it to be.
January 18, 2010 at 5:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"...I'm sorry to hear that so many people out in Wenatchee (Washington?) are so closed minded."
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Oh, puh-leeeeze. You live across the country and have no knowledge of the western United States, much less our State or our community. The fact that you make your close-minded judgements and silly proclamations based on what you glean from this thread is incredibly telling.
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It has been my experience that those who claim that others are closed-minded are usually so open-minded that their brains have fallen out. Now, since you are so concerned with existing inequities, perhaps there are some social ills within your own backyard that you could expend some energy on?
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When some snot-nosed know-it-all from the eastern seaboard decides to pass judgement on our town, instead of addresing the debate at hand, than this thread is treading water with regard to civil discourse. Now, shall the debate continue to float into this direction, or should it get back to the specific topic which started it all?
January 18, 2010 at 5:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I'm sorry gator, but it's ignorant to say that someone who presents themselves in a different way is only asking for attention. In fact alot of times it is simply a rebellion against the conformity in their community. I was a strange kid and I could list a ton of personal experiences that would be chopped up to just that, personal experience. I know plenty of others who felt the same way though, and can't for the life of me think of anyone I know who looked or acted differently, that didn't feel, not only rediculed by their peers but by the people who were supposed to protect them. Like the kid that I know personally who, in the lae nineties, was beaten so badly that he had to be air lifted to harbor view. The whole altercation started over his hairstyle. The thing that makes this occurance so disturbing is the number of teachers and school authority figures who showed up to court to defend what they called, "boys will be boys" behavior. I want to throw out a disclaimer that I wasn't in the courtroom but a close friend of mine, (not the victim) was there and witnessed this.
January 18, 2010 at 5:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
Hey Martin, way to prove me wrong. haha
January 18, 2010 at 7:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
This town is oppressive to it's youth that they consider to be, "strange"
Ah, you gotta love a little "strange" from time to time...
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x31u...
January 18, 2010 at 8:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"Hey Martin, way to prove me wrong. haha"
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Prove what? That you made a pretension at a rational discussion so you could turn it into a verbal vendetta against Wenatchee? No proof needed, bubba; your words are the witness.
January 18, 2010 at 10:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I merely pointing out that in one breath you defended Wenatchee from those who think that it's full of people with closed minds. Then in the very same breath you attack open mindedness. Just seemed a bit silly to me is all.
The reason I live here is that I like it here. Sure the people that I love are in the minority but they are here. I have lived here half my life and consider it my home just as much as Seattle is.
It might be the big fish in a small pond syndrome, sure. I am ok with that. Wenatchee is a town that I have alot of influence in through music, and I definitely prefer a city that I might make a difference in, as opposed to a city where I just flat out fit in.
I am sure this makes me a complicated person but here I am. Now Martin. I have mentioned the discussion at hand in all my responses up until this one. You seem to be the one getting distracted. You and the people talking about fish birds or whatever, anyway.
January 19, 2010 at 11:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"merely pointing out that in one breath you defended Wenatchee from those who think that it's full of people with closed minds. Then in the very same breath you attack open mindedness. Just seemed a bit silly to me is all."
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No, Jeremy, you missed my point entirely. I made no criticism about being open-minded. My comment was about those who claim open-mindedness, but are instead, are so self-righteous about their open-mindedness that they will blindly condemn others who refuse to accept their point-of-view. The blanket condemnation of Wenatchee, because of comments here, is a prime example. Just what percentage of the local population are represented in this thread?
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"....and I definitely prefer a city that I might make a difference in, as opposed to a city where I just flat out fit in."
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By implication you feel the need to purposefully NOT fit in? Sort of like a person who is Southern Baptist attending a Catholic church?
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"You seem to be the one getting distracted. You and the people talking about fish birds or whatever, anyway."
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I haven't talked about birds, fish, or bumblebees. I specifically addressed the condemnation of a community directly related to the opinion of a few. I am no more "distracted", by virtue of my previous comment, than you are by addressing me in your last post. You cannot deny that you have thrown out blanket statements condemning Wenatchee. You certainly cannot deny that 'researcher' said what she did. You failed to reply to her that she was "distracted" in her comments. It seems you have a slanted definition of what is on-topic and what is not.
January 19, 2010 at 1:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
"Wenatchee is a town that I have alot of influence in through music"
I am sorry if this is off-topic, but I'm curious about this statement. Does this mean that you were influenced to come to Wenatchee because of the music scene, or does this mean that you think that your music influences the people of Wenatchee?
January 19, 2010 at 2:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
gator, I am saying that my music has influenced people in wenatchee. The people I have had an impact on our a very small minority, but I think I have been there and been a part of giving the misfits of Wenatchee a place to go.
Martin, I didn't make any blanket statement based on what has been said here. You originally quoted me, and I draw my conclusion from my experience living in this town. Like I have said I could throw out a million personal experiences but that is all they are, and I assure you that the general view from kids that are different in this town is that they are not accepted.
IT has nothing to do with purposefully not fitting in. I don't see where you get that. LIke homosexuality is something you are born with, so is being a weirdo. In the sixties they called themselves freaks. Sure there are those who fake the funk, but most are just born thinking and feeling differently. Eventually you get fed up with the way everyone acts and are so offended by the way they live their lives i.e. money or religion over personal well being, or other things that you might not agree with. So when you get fed up you fight back. Some are subtle and only fight back by looking different. It might not make sense to you but it may make sense to them.all I am asking is for a little tolerance for personal expression. In what world is that bad?
Martin, all of your comments have had nothing to do with the original post. I find it ironic that you don't want people to stray off the topic that you never seem to have mentioned.
January 19, 2010 at 7:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I also think that it is silly when people want to defend close minded arguments by saying things like, "you are the one that is supposed to be open minded." As if someone should be so open minded that they should be open to close mindedness. I might be a little scattered right now due to lack of sleep but I think I am making my point here.
January 19, 2010 at 7:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
."Martin, I didn't make any blanket statement based on what has been said here."
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Sure you did. You made this statement: "Researcher, This town is oppressive to it's youth that they consider to be, "strange" I have been through it and so have most of my friends." Your 'experiences' didn't happen with the whole town. I doubt that whatever you or your friends experienced involved more than a minuscule fraction of the total population.
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"IT has nothing to do with purposefully not fitting in. I don't see where you get that."
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Because you know that this area is conservative in its lifestyle and politics and yet you choose to live here when you can live in Seattle. You then state, "and I definitely prefer a city that I might make a difference in, as opposed to a city where I just flat out fit in." What one wears or how ones expresses their appearance is optional; one can CHOOSE how they look. One also chooses how one may express themselves as well. You are making your own choices, Jeremy.
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"Like homosexuality is something you are born with, so is being a weirdo. In the sixties they called themselves freaks."
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I'm sorry, do gays have a special dress code, look or manner? Perhaps they are born with a tattoo or mark? Even if I were to accept your argument on face value, which I don't, how you appear and act toward the public is still a choice. Unless, of course, one is born with unchangeable spiked and parrot-colored hair, or fetal-formed nose rings, or in-vitro acquired tats.
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"....all I am asking is for a little tolerance for personal expression. In what world is that bad?"
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A little tolerance? Define 'tolerance'. If by tolerance you mean that I must accept your version of expression, then yes, it is bad. I am free to accept or reject what I personally find obnoxious or distasteful. As most fashion magazines, and the late Mr. Black, have amply demonstrated, what some want to adopt as a style or as a statement does not allow them to be free from criticism. I am even free to express such in a non-threatening manner. For example, I can make a sour face at the appearance of a fat person wearing lycra tights in a grocery store. It may be considered rude to do so, but that is still my choice. By the same token, I can give an appreciative smile to an attractive and shapely woman wearing the same tight lycra outfit. There is no 'right' of freedom from being or feeling offended (again, politeness is the key).
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If by 'tolerance' you mean that you must be allowed the same constitutional rights as anyone else, then you may have a point. You are not allowed to be stoned, spit upon, set on fire, or verbally threatened.
January 19, 2010 at 8:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
."you are the one that is supposed to be open minded."
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Who said that? Certainly not me.
January 19, 2010 at 9:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lizalee65 (Liz Willman) says...
What I'm about to say may put some people off because I don't live in Wenatchee and like Reseacher I live on the East Coast. The problem you have with the school board and the community about the young people of your town is not isolated. The kids aren't listened to because they don't vote. They have no voice because they don't vote. No one fights for them because they are kids.
Jeremy, I commend you on giving Brayden a voice. She should be able to wear her hair any way her mother allows her. That is their voices combined shouting individuality, but because they went against the "norm" they were hushed.
When all is said and done; these childern, the nations childern; are our future. By styming their thoughts and their ability to be individuals, you are stunting their ability to think outside the box. Doing this could hinder the future doctor to discover the cure for cancer or AIDS, the next Rembrant or Monet, the next Elvis or Yo-Yo Ma. These childern need to be nurtured not nuetered.
I also wanted to comment to the person speaking about a Southern Baptist being in a Catholic church. I was baptised Catholic and raised Southern Baptist. That just taught me to respect all religions and the people that are different from me.
January 20, 2010 at 11:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mavulous (mav ulous) says...
>What I'm about to say may put some people off because I don't live in Wenatchee and like Reseacher I live on the East Coast.<
Blue zones will always differ from red zones. Way back in the 6th grade we received a new student mid-year from Maryland. He was very bright, very interesting, and very cocky. That was back in the day of "hacks" and where he came from the teachers had no physical means of enforcing class discipline, but out here in the Wild West things were different. By the end of his first week he was called up to the front of the class to receive his first experience with the "Board of Education". Good old Mr. Holland had him bend over and then leaned into him with a couple of really good ones that echoed down the hall I'm sure. When the new kid stood up and faced the class, I had never seen a face so red, lol. It wasn't much later that the hacks were discontinued, possibly due in part to the fact that his well-educated parents had a talk with the school principal, but I'll never forget the new kid back in the 6th grade who defied the teacher, thinking that he wouldn't dare give him what he had coming. His day of reckoning turned him the color of a conservative state and he wore it well. Maybe Massachussets will now do the same.
January 20, 2010 at 12:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
"When all is said and done; these childern, the nations childern; are our future. By styming their thoughts and their ability to be individuals, you are stunting their ability to think outside the box. Doing this could hinder the future doctor to discover the cure for cancer or AIDS, the next Rembrant or Monet, the next Elvis or Yo-Yo Ma"
>
Liz, your statement above attempts to compare creativity, inherent talent, and even genius, to the fact that some people may or may not be accepted for wearing "strange" attire in a mostly conservative area. I'm not sure that leap can be made.
Two points:
First, if, in this case a child is truly a creative genius, then how would that change, just because the school they attended stifled his/her outlet for a few years? I think it is quite a stretch to say "since the school district didn't allow her mohawk, Brayden will be turned into a gray-suit-wearing robot for the rest of her life".
Second, although there certainly are exceptions, the vast majority of people, especially younger people, are simply looking for attention by trying to be different. Rather than a real expression of some kind of "individuality", this is more often then not a "look at me!" statement.
Third, contrary to the opinion of some of the posters in this thread, Wenatchee IS a conservative town, and many of us like it that way. That doesn't mean that people have to look like everyone else, but it does mean that the majority of the populace's ideals have influence on the public establishments - in this case, the school. According to your statement, this would mean the all great artists and thinkers of our time came from liberal areas where they weren't "oppressed" by us rednecks - and that just ain't how it is.
January 20, 2010 at 2:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Sorry, that was actually three points. See, us rednecks can't even count...
January 20, 2010 at 2:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lizalee65 (Liz Willman) says...
mav ulous, I am from the southern part of the east coast and well aware of the board of education. We don't have it anymore, instead we have resource officers that just take them on to jail for fighting and disrespecting them. The school district issues write-ups for the least little infraction and causes the parent to lose time from work to deal with it. The students don't respect the teachers anymore and most teachers really don't want to be there or just can't do the job. Teachers with innovated ideas to reach the students are discourged to try and only use the cirriculum laid out for them by the school board.
January 20, 2010 at 2:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
First off Thank you liz.
Martin, I made my statement based on personal experience, not on what was said in this forum.
I don't believe that this is a conservative town. I believe that the people that are older and/or have more money here, are conservative. I choose to be here because there is a group of people here that are alot like me. Blue collar, hard working, free thinkers. With hobbies like playing music, writing poetry and short stories, painting, and all other forms of artistic expression. I don't find many blue collar people like that in Seattle. I like people that are a little tough, aren't afraid to put back a few beers, over a football game, and then discuss our favorite writers, and who we think the most revolutionary new band might be at the moment.
The majority of this county voted for Obama, and it was nearly 50/50 when it came to Bush Vs. Kerry. I honestly believe there are plenty of liberals in this town who just don't feel like theyt have a voice. I'm more like a Liberal Conservative. I think the republican party has just fallen off. Anyway enough of that.
Martin, try and understand, just try. A kid that feels different will feel like they are dishonest with themselves if they "try and fit in" and they shouldn't have to. It's one thing to get crap from your peers, but when the people who are suppose to protect and inspire you don't, that's when I have a problem. Sure they could try to fit in, just like a gay man can try to be straight, but they won't be acting in a way that is conducive to who they truly are.
Martin, yes you can criticize but you aren't aloud to stop someone from acting in a manner you think is weird, when it has no direct effect on you, or your well being. Congrats, you don't like people that are different from you. Neither does the KKK, but we still don't let them make decisions that effect our schools, and our children.
January 20, 2010 at 4:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
researcher (R searcher) says...
"The kids aren't listened to because they don't vote. They have no voice because they don't vote. No one fights for them because they are kids.
Jeremy, I commend you on giving Brayden a voice"
Liz, I completly agree with you here. In my short lifetime, I have encountered few educators who have taken a genuine interest in the thoughts and opinions of their students and much less who have taken steps out of thier way to help.
I think that when Brayden's (and my) generation grows up, there will be much less friction between individuals, like student and teacher/princepal/etc., because of instances like this. Speaking from personal experience and what I have seen many of my friends go through, I believe that every person at some point in thier life will come through a time where they are generally not accepted by others. This is why I hope that anyone that can relate in to Brayden's situation needs to learn from it so that freedom of expression is more accepted.
On another point, I would like to say that even though mass is a blue zone, Scott Brown was elected to fill Ted Kennedy's senator seat last night, so maybe that is starting to change. I, believe it or not, am actually very conservative when it comes to political ideals and even lifestyle. However, I cannot say wether or not my perception of a conservative lifestyle is the same as yours.
Lastly, I think that Brayden's issue is more a matter of right and wrong than it is a statement about the conservative nature of your town. I am merely stating that being different is not wrong and should not be condemned as wrong. There are people that might not like it, or might not want to accept it, but the least they could do is handle the issue respectfully. If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all. It's called common courtesy.
January 20, 2010 at 5:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
gator,m
"First, if, in this case a child is truly a creative genius, then how would that change, just because the school they attended stifled his/her outlet for a few years? I think it is quite a stretch to say "since the school district didn't allow her mohawk, Brayden will be turned into a gray-suit-wearing robot for the rest of her life".
You wanna know how? kids are constantly beaten mentally into conforming to what is considered "the norm" and then eventually fall in line and act like everyone else. When even a teacher is telling them they are wrong fror being different, they will eventually start to believe it. After all we tell them to look up to and respect those people. I mean, I would never tell my kid that, but most people do.
January 20, 2010 at 5:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I was meaning to say liberal republican, not liberal conservative. Really that's not even right. I'm probably part socialist, part democrat, libertarian, republican, etc. etc. Though I am a registered democrat, because I am one of those sad beaten people that is afraid to throw my vote away. Really I prefer not to discuss all of that.
January 20, 2010 at 5:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
one lat thing. I think that most artists do come from liberal areas. Look at cities like Seattle, Boston, and San Fransisco for instance.
I just don't think that young people with talent should have to move away. I think they should stay and help change this beautiful valley into what it could be. This town could use a little progress.
January 20, 2010 at 6:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"Martin, I made my statement based on personal experience, not on what was said in this forum."
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Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, it is a personal experience.
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"I don't believe that this is a conservative town. I believe that the people that are older and/or have more money here, are conservative."
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Your belief notwithstanding, the voting polls demonstrate that you are incorrect.
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"I choose to be here because there is a group of people here that are alot like me..."
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"The majority of this county voted for Obama..."
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The Chelan and Douglas County voters voted overwhelmingly against Obama. Douglas County: 38% Obama, 60% McCain. Chelan County: 43% Obama, 55% McCain.
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"I honestly believe there are plenty of liberals in this town who just don't feel like they have a voice."
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I can't argue with your belief. I just don't believe that such a belief changes the political dynamic of the demographic in Wenatchee.
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"Martin, try and understand, just try. A kid that feels different will feel like they are dishonest with themselves if they "try and fit in".. and they shouldn't have to. It's one thing to get crap from your peers, but when the people who are suppose to protect and inspire you don't, that's when I have a problem. Sure they could try to fit in, just like a gay man can try to be straight, but they won't be acting in a way that is conducive to who they truly are."
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All that you have done is to try and provide a defense for selfcenterdness. The defense is weak. I would guess that you either cannot, or are unwilling to describe a limit beyond which unrestrained individual expression becomes harmful. You presume to demand that I accept YOUR definition of expression. Sorry, but I do not have to do so. Nor will I.
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"Martin, yes you can criticize but you aren't aloud to stop someone from acting in a manner you think is weird, when it has no direct effect on you, or your well being."
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Such as?
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"Congrats, you don't like people that are different from you."
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Since you know nothing about me, that also includes the people that I interact with and those whom I call friends. That is part of you problem, Jeremy, your presumptive arrogance.
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"Neither does the KKK,.."
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LOL!!! your attempted insult may have worked better if you referred to the Taliban or Nazis. You realize that you have no credibility left after that?
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"...but we still don't let them make decisions that effect our schools, and our children."
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The School Boards make the decisions. Local voters elect the Board members. None of them are known affiliates of the KKK.
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January 20, 2010 at 6:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"I also wanted to comment to the person speaking about a Southern Baptist being in a Catholic church. I was baptised Catholic and raised Southern Baptist. That just taught me to respect all religions and the people that are different from me."
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Well, your response had nothing to do with my point, but I commend you and I'm happy for you.
January 20, 2010 at 6:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I am having a hard time figuring out if I am just not clear enough, or if you have a reading comprehension problem. I will come back and reply later.
January 20, 2010 at 9:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"I am having a hard time figuring out if I am just not clear enough, or if you have a reading comprehension problem."
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More likely that you are having a hard time focusing with your head lodged where it is.
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"I will come back and reply later."
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I'm all a tingle.
January 20, 2010 at 10:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Researcher said,
"I am merely stating that being different is not wrong and should not be condemned as wrong. There are people that might not like it, or might not want to accept it, but the least they could do is handle the issue respectfully. If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all. It's called common courtesy."
<
On this point, I completely agree with you. Being different, or creative, or "strange" is not wrong.
But, I don't think this argument was ever really about whether being different is right or wrong. It is about whether the school board should have to change their rules/ideals, which were developed with help from the opinions of this community, and which were developed with the majority in mind, based on one person's disgruntlement of those rules.
January 21, 2010 at 2:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Jeremy,
I think part of the reason that Martin is so fired up about your comments, is that you seem to be attempting to paint a picture of Wenatchee that is not how things really are. If I knew nothing about Wenatchee, except what you posted on here, I would think that there are only two kinds of people in this town - crotchety old farts that hate young people and everything they do, and the young, liberal, artistic "heroes", who are fighting for everything that is good and right.
>
But, the problem is - that may be your point of view, but others have a right to their own points of view. A young-to-middle-aged working person, who is not artistic, is not a bad guy. Wearing a suit or jeans-and-a-t-shirt does not equate to a mindless hoard of automatons with no life or no ambitions. And someone who would rather go play a round of golf rather than listen to alternative (or whatever you call it) music does not make them uber-conservative, art-haters. Or KKK members.
>
There is nothing wrong with someone being different, but comparing the school board to the KKK, just because someone whose ideals are not that of the majority is being asked to tone it down, is simply demonstrating the line of separation between you and them.
January 21, 2010 at 2:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"Jeremy,
I think part of the reason that Martin is so fired up about your comments...."
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Thank you. That is very close to what I have been trying to get across, Gator. If that makes it clearer to Jeremy, I am grateful.
January 21, 2010 at 5:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I will ad more in a minute but I wanted to let you know martin, that city-data.com States that Chelan county voted 58% for Obama and 41% to McCain
http://www.city-data.com/county/Chela...
January 21, 2010 at 7:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"I will ad more in a minute but I wanted to let you know martin, that city-data.com States that Chelan county voted 58% for Obama and 41% to McCain"
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I suggest that you go to the WA State/Chelan County website for the official results, rather than a third-tier info. gathering site, Jeremy.
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http://wei.secstate.wa.gov/chelan/Ele...
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It just goes to show you, Jeremy, that you can't believe everything on the web. I would also take pains to point out that Chelan and Douglas County residents are more representative of the American people, than are the residents of King County. Nationwide, those reporting themselves as 'conservative' far outnumber those who consider themselves 'liberal', 40% vs. 19%.
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http://www.gallup.com/poll/120857/con...
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January 21, 2010 at 8:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Enesvy (Nicole Villacres) says...
Jeremy, I'm curious. Does your anger also go toward employers who require a dress code? For example, if you want to work at Disneyland, you don't get to have a beard or mustache--no facial hair (and, most likely, no mohawks). Is that evil like the KKK, too?
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For the record, I'm in my 40s with no particular enthnicity since I am equally Equadoran-German-Portuguese-Irish in equal parts. I am simply American. I believe in the system of voting. Brayden would benefit most in this if she saw her mother get involved with the school board and work to change the policy. I know that's not as cool or hip as going out and screaming about how unfair things are, but it's the one way to really get results.
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Oh, and for whoever said Brayden is fragile and breakable on this subject, please note that Jeremy made it patently clear at the beginning that she is a strong girl and not likely to be psychologically damaged by this. I imagine he would know better than we would.
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Myself, when I'm out in the parks, shopping, biking or hiking this summer, I hope to see a young girl running around proudly sporting her mohawk. :)
January 23, 2010 at 10:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
oh and fella, you really want to tell people that they shouldn't have an opinion because they don't pay taxes here? come on pal, grow up.
January 24, 2010 at 2:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
look man, you don't have to accept my lifestyle but it is not your right or the right of anyone else to tell me how to live as long as their is no one harmed. In this case, no one is harmed. You throw around a ton of tired rhetoric, cut up my posts, and if anyone is acting superiour here, it is you. You have refused to even try to understand where someone else is coming from, and I have openly discussed where others are coming from and tried to explain where I thought they were wrong. Yes I have been on the defensive with you, as you draw conclusions that I never made, and insult my friend repeatedly for letting her child have a silly haircut. If you knew how excited she was about it, you wouldn't feel good about making her take it down. I don't know for sure though, you might be into that sort of thing.
January 24, 2010 at 1:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"look man, you don't have to accept my lifestyle"
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Agreed. Now we are getting somewhere.
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"... but it is not your right or the right of anyone else to tell me how to live as long as their is no one harmed."
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Well, there are two problems with your statement, Jeremy.
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1. We would have to come to a conclusion about who gets to define 'harm'. What society has never allowed, throughout history, is for the individual to define, for himself, what is or is not a 'harm' to society. Society, as a cohort made up of many individuals, always defines 'harm'.
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2. The term 'right', as you have used it in your statement, has a specific meaning. As you have used the term, you would have to demonstrate that the Constitution prohibits a specific action from taking place
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For example, does the Constitution prohibit the Wenatchee School Board, which is made up of individuals who represent the community, to dictate a dress code? The answer is 'NO'. Does the Constitution prohibit someone from making a comment to a biker club about how much they dislike their colors? The answer is' NO'. It would be a Darwin Award moment, but such comment to the bikers is allowed under the Constitution.
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"You throw around a ton of tired rhetoric, cut up my posts, and if anyone is acting superiour here, it is you."
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That sentence is a prime example of WHY I will seperate parts of your post. You have three individual ideas mised into one sentence. Two of the three subjects are non-responsive ('tons of tired rhetoric, and 'acting superior') and requires no specific address. The one subject worthy of response was the issue of my 'cut up my posts', which response was made at the beginning of my paragraph.
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" You have refused to even try to understand where someone else is coming from..."
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How so, Jeremy? By what evidence, do you make the assumption that I fail to understand your position? I am serious here. I have read your words several times for each post. I have asked you repeatedly to clarify several points you had made. Do you believe that 'refused to even try to understand' means the same thing as my having to agree with YOUR point-of-view? If so, then you are way off the mark.
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"Yes I have been on the defensive with you, as you draw conclusions that I never made,"
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You mean like the your insistence that Wenatchee is a liberal town? Or about the use of the term 'KKK'?
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End Part One
January 24, 2010 at 3:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
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Begin Part Two
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"...and insult my friend repeatedly for letting her child have a silly haircut."
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I never insulted your friend. Nor have I made any repeated postings about your friend. I made one post, part of which had anything to do with Brayden's mother. It was the second post made. It read:.."Can't wait for Brayden to nag her mom into agreement so she can get her nipples pierced or get a bone through her nose. :-)"
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Did you notice the 'smiley' emoticon, Jeremy? Now, please tell me just how that was an insult, and just where are the other posts I've made that confirm your baseless allegation that I insulted Brayden's mom 'repeatedly'?
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"If you knew how excited she was about it, you wouldn't feel good about making her take it down."
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Jeremy, this is nothing but a straw man. As I have stated before, and my posts prove, I..HAVE..NEVER..SAID..ONE..WORD..ABOUT..LIKING...OR...DISLIKING...BRAYDEN's...MOHWK. I added the emphasis because you seem to have missed that point, repeatedly, in my writings. Additionally, I have never a position or viewpoint about the mohawk in school.
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In my most recent previous post, I detailed exactly what I have addressed with you. Yet here you come again, stating something which has no factual basis. Why do you feel the need to stoop to such tactics? I have been honest in my writings with you, and I have tried to address you as an adult. Instead of doing so, you must rely on immature rantings like this one:
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"I don't know for sure though, you might be into that sort of thing."
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January 24, 2010 at 3:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Jeremy said:
"oh and fella, you really want to tell people that they shouldn't have an opinion because they don't pay taxes here? come on pal, grow up."
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Sorry, maybe I should have worded it differently, but still, if this issue came to a petition or a vote or town hall meeting, an internet blogger from the east coast wouldn't get a say. That's the truth - this isn't a national issue. That's all I meant by it.
January 25, 2010 at 10:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pruitt (Brianne Pruitt) says...
Hey everyone ~
Just a reminder to keep the profanity and personal attacks out of your comments. And substituting a * or $ for a letter in a swear word is not acceptable. Thanks to all the commenters for your passionate debate on this issue, and feel free to keep it up. Just make sure your comments follow our Use Policy (http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/use-pol...), or I will have to remove them and any comments that refer to them.
~ Brianne Pruitt, Web editor
The Wenatchee World
January 26, 2010 at 8:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Hi Brianne,
I might suggest having a list of exactly what is and isn't acceptable terminology for this board, rather than a vague "no profanity" clause.
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The term that I used that I noticed is now erased (although, I admittedly did use the "$" symbol) is used on television at any hour of the day, as well as newspaper and internet editorials that are open to anyone viewing them. Therefore, to me, that term is in no way a "swear word".
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I just think your comments are exactly in the spirit of this debate :-), that what is and what is not acceptable is in the eye of the beholder.
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January 26, 2010 at 10:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pruitt (Brianne Pruitt) says...
Gator ~
Though many media outlets allow swear words to be published on their platforms, it is the policy of the Wenatchee World to abstain from publishing profanity, written by us or our community. I'm not going to list the words out, that would negate the point. We all know what is and is not a curse word (if you're not sure, check with George Carlin;) .) We try to foster a civil discourse and debate, and attacking other commenters or posting profanity (even when typographically obscured) is not acceptable. And on our Web site, what is or is not acceptable is in the eye of the Wenatchee World. Hope that clarifies the point. Thanks for your response.
~ Brianne
January 26, 2010 at 11:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
anniebear (Annie Bear) says...
Well put Brianne and thank you :)
January 26, 2010 at 12:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Enesvy (Nicole Villacres) says...
Thanks, Brianne. :)
January 26, 2010 at 1:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Brianne,
I respectfully disagree that "We all know what is and is not a curse word", but I will refrain from further use of such terminology, now that I know your opinion. In that I apologize.
January 26, 2010 at 3 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I"m really curious what was said... or if I was the victim of slander? haha, Did I say something? was someone the victim of my slander?
anyway, Martin I really feel that you don't care either way about this subject, and you only want to argue. Common behavior on the internet, as I have stated before.
I will end by quoting William S. Burroughs, “How I hate those who are dedicated to producing conformity.”
January 26, 2010 at 8:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"I'm really curious what was said... or if I was the victim of slander? haha, Did I say something? was someone the victim of my slander?"
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You made a racist, bigoted comment. I pointed out the irony of someone making such a comment after making an accusation of my being in cahoots with the KKK.
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"Martin I really feel that you don't care either way about this subject, and you only want to argue."
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Then your feelings have, as before, betrayed you. I care very much about the making of a blanket and baseless statement concerning Wenatchee as a closed-minded community.
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"I will end by quoting William S. Burroughs, 'How I hate those who are dedicated to producing conformity'.”
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A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein
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January 27, 2010 at 3:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I never once mad a racist remark... I have made plenty of remarks on class, but never once mad a racist statement.
You try to reduce mine and others personal experience as baseless, yet what does one have to go on when gauging the way that authority figures in this town treat people that are different. You yourself have made remarks about not having to accept people that are different, and you have no problem telling them that they can't be different, or look different. No hidden agenda there, how is that proof of keeping an open mind?
January 27, 2010 at 12:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"I never once mad a racist remark... I have made plenty of remarks on class, but never once mad a racist statement."
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This is the downside of having posts removed. You trotted out a nasty stereotype of Native Indians when you said that I was "a tax free native american". That is a racist, bigoted comment. As I stated before, such bigotry is when your blog was about a hairstyle that mimics what was worn by, and is named after, certain members of a Native tribe.
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"You try to reduce mine and others personal experience as baseless, yet what does one have to go on when gauging the way that authority figures in this town treat people that are different."
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I have done no such thing. I never once denied your 'personal experience'. What I HAVE done is state that your 'personal experience, nor that of others, is not a valid argument for the accusation you wish to levy. You try to use personal experience to cloak the entire town with your accusation. Unless you can prove, objectively, that a vast majority of this town is closed-minded, your accusation has no basis in fact.
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"You yourself have made remarks about not having to accept people that are different,"
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Correct. I am not required to accept anyone's beliefs, lifestyle, or artificial differentiating decoration. But here's the rub, Jeremy: I have never stated that I DON'T. the 'acceptance' of a difference is an individual choice and a legal and Constitutional right. I have argued that there is a massive difference between 'tolerance' and 'acceptance'. I have further argued that unless you are advocating a society of politically-correct mind control, where there is no freedom of choice or thought, there is no requirement that anyone must be 'accepting' of anything. I will state once again, 'tolerance' and 'acceptance' are two terms which have different applications and implications.
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End of Part One
January 27, 2010 at 2:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
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Part Two
."...and you have no problem telling them that they can't be different, or look different."
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I never said that. What I have said, when you have previously made that statement is this question: 'Such as?' You fail to provide me with a concrete example of who 'they' are, and what 'they' are doing, or wearing, or where 'they' are doing it. You have failed to answer the question.
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I have further asked you to state any limits of your notion of free expression beyond which you find that there is a harm to society. Again, you have failed to answer the question.
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As I have stated previously, you know nothing about me, who I have as friends, what my tastes are, or what my interactions are in public. You have no clue as to what I accept or tolerate. The mistake that you make is to assume that because I disagree with your assessment of this town, that I am the same as those who have gotten in your face about your 'style'. You make the assumption that I would approve of such behavior. You make those assumptions because you have little tolerance for those who disagree with your ideas... in this case, your notion that Wenatchee, as an entire town, is closed-minded. The fact that you seem to have missed the entire point of the arguments which I have put forward, demonstrates that you do nothing more than superficially glance at the words that are written, rather than considering the context of the content.
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"No hidden agenda there, how is that proof of keeping an open mind?"
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Jeremy, how does one 'prove' that one has an 'open mind'? Do you even understand the CONCEPT of what an 'open mind' is? Hint: it has nothing to do with being tolerant or accepting of all things.
January 27, 2010 at 2:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
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There was a mistake when I posted this comment: "As I stated before, such bigotry is when your blog was about a hairstyle that mimics what was worn by, and is named after, certain members of a Native tribe."
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I was hurridly typing and inadvertantly deleted part of the wording that I meant to include: "As I stated before, THE IRONY OF such bigotry is when your blog was about a hairstyle that mimics what was worn by, and is named after, certain members of a Native tribe." The wording that was left out is capitalized.
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I apologize for the unintended meaning of what was first posted. I do not believe that a mohawk haircut is a statement of bigotry in and of itself.
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January 27, 2010 at 2:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
Well apparently you have miss read me because I never once said "tax free native american," or anything even remotely similar. Please don't accuse me of saying something I never said. Maybe someone else did, but I don't remember that happening either.
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I also never said the entire town was a bunch of biggots. I made a statement about authority figures in this town enforcing and assuming guilt on people who they consider to be different. Maybe not by race as I have no real idea, I'm a white fella, but I can say that over and over again I have seen people be punished or assumed guilt upon by authority figures because of their class or appearance. If I was talking about an isolated incident then I would say you are correct, but I have seen it happen over and over and over and over and over and over... should I continue? I have even given plenty of examples. I think that if most people around here opened their eyes they could see it very easily. Don't tell me it's not true when I have seen it and been a victim of it more times than I care to remember.
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I'm really starting to wonder who you are arguing with. You constantly tell me that I am saying things that I am not even saying... It is very frustrating.
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you can dislike it all you want, but the only thing you have a legal right to do is insult someone or complain about it, but what does that say about someones character if they are doing such things? How is that open minded in the least?. You don't get to tell someone how they wear their hair. Freedom of expression is protected in the freedom of speech. I don't promote an overly politically correct agenda. All I am saying is that you can't tell someone how to look, think, or act, beyond legalities in which their is a victim involved. Maybe their are some laws I am not thinking of, but if they are there I disagree with them, as I do many laws.
January 28, 2010 at 12:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
"I never said that. What I have said, when you have previously made that statement is this question: 'Such as?' You fail to provide me with a concrete example of who 'they' are, and what 'they' are doing, or wearing, or where 'they' are doing it. You have failed to answer the question."
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Check the top of the page. I'm refering to people that dress different than the norm. I'm not talking about profanity on clothing, or drug and alcohol promotion. I'm not talking about short skirts, or belly shirts. It would be impossible for me to make an entire list of strange clothing and hairstyles.
There are laws in place, that draw the lines for us. Like I said, I don't agree with them all but they are there. Last I checked, there was no law against mohawks in the state of Washington, or in Chelan Country.
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". You make those assumptions because you have little tolerance for those who disagree with your ideas..."
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no, I make those assumptions because you are defending it, and have defended it.
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"in this case, your notion that Wenatchee, as an entire town, is closed-minded. "
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No, not the entire town, but a large portion, and unfortunately the large portion that seems to be in charge of things.
To be open minded is to be free of prejudice. If you are judgin someone based on their hair style... come on.
January 28, 2010 at 12:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"Well apparently you have miss read me because I never once said "tax free native american," or anything even remotely similar. Please don't accuse me of saying something I never said. Maybe someone else did, but I don't remember that happening either."
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Jeremy. It was there in black and white. You said it. That was the reason your post was pulled. As I said, it is a cryin' shame that the World pulled your post. I wish that Brianne would re-post both of our deleted posts. You may not have meant to write what you did with hurtful intent, and I give you the benefit of the doubt there. I suppose it is possible that someone else posted using your name. But the words were posted.
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"I also never said the entire town was a bunch of biggots."
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I never said that you stated the entire town was a bunch of bigots. I said that you have called the town 'closed-minded. It gets tiring correcting your incorrect assertions. From now on, if you are going to claim I said something, provide the quote from the post in which you are going to claim I stated something. You have been challenged on your inaccuracies multiple times.
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"I made a statement about authority figures in this town enforcing and assuming guilt on people... "
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Yes you did. Many times. Over and over. And as I stated in my last post, I have never denied what you claim. Now, what does that have to do with the fact that you have said this community is closed-minded? THAT"S THE ISSUE.
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"I'm really starting to wonder who you are arguing with. You constantly tell me that I am saying things that I am not even saying... It is very frustrating."
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(Sigh). Really, Jeremy? Even when I provide the quotes?
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"you can dislike it all you want, but the only thing you have a legal right to do is insult someone or complain about it...,
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Dislike WHAT, Jeremy? You have introduced a number of subjects in your post. Instead of being specific, by including a subject in your sentence, you leave me guessing about what it is you are saying that I dislike.
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"You don't get to tell someone how they wear their hair. Freedom of expression is protected in the freedom of speech. I don't promote an overly politically correct agenda."
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I agree with you. If you go back and read my posts again, you will see that I have repeatedly said this.
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"All I am saying is that you can't tell someone how to look, think, or act, beyond legalities in which their is a victim involved. Maybe their are some laws I am not thinking of, but if they are there I disagree with them, as I do many laws."
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I think I agree with what you wrote, but permit me to be a bit more precise with your statement. Would you agree that we have the right to tell someone how they should look (although it would be rudely bad form to do so), but that we do NOT have the right to COMPEL someone, who we have no authority over, to adopt a specific style or look?
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January 28, 2010 at 1:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
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"Check the top of the page. I'm refering to people that dress different than the norm. I'm not talking about profanity on clothing, or drug and alcohol promotion. I'm not talking about short skirts, or belly shirts. It would be impossible for me to make an entire list of strange clothing and hairstyles."
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That helps me to understand, a bit better, your perspective. Thank you.
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"There are laws in place, that draw the lines for us. Like I said, I don't agree with them all but they are there. Last I checked, there was no law against mohawks in the state of Washington, or in Chelan Country."
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Nor should mohawks be outlawed. By the way, that is the first thing I have said directly about mohawks. I find everything that you have written reasonable, which is not a surprise to me at all.
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"no, I make those assumptions because you are defending it, and have defended it."
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Please clarify your statement for me, Jeremy. From what I have written, what is it that you believe I was defending? What I am hoping, is that you do not mean that I defend rudeness or bullying behavior because I do not hold the view that Wenatchee is closed-minded.
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"To be open minded is to be free of prejudice. If you are judgin someone based on their hair style... come on."
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To be open minded is to be able to dispassionately consider a variety of points of view, information, ideas, or thoughts. In doing so, one is not required to change one's beliefs unless they feel compelled to do so by that which they have put under consideration.
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I do not tolerate bullies, Jeremy. If someone in public looks a bit odd to me, my choice is to not be boorish. I do not want to make someone feel bad. If I saw someone bullying someone else due to their eccentricity, I would get involved to try and protect the person being bullied. If I personally saw an official go all primeval on someone simply because of how they looked, I have the chops to file a complaint on the official and would offer to work with the person who was hassled to seek formal disciplinary action.
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As I have said, Jeremy, you don't know anything about me.
January 28, 2010 at 2:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
maybenot (maybe not) says...
Wow this 8 year old is so original and creative that she has to have the haircut that evey other original/creative person has. Sounds like another copycat to me.
February 1, 2010 at 2:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
martin, I thgink we are starting to get somewhere now, I will respond more later.
maybenot, what in the world are you even talking about? Her mohawk is original for an 8 year old.
February 1, 2010 at 6:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
If I said anything about Native Americans there is no likely way that it was pulled for me making a derogatory statement towards them. I have zero ill will towards native Americans and defend their position and what they (or you're) ancestors have been through, and are going through. I feel that are readers are being highly misinformed by you making such statements, and wish you would stop.
"I said that you have called the town 'closed-minded. It gets tiring correcting your incorrect assertions" are you kidding me? It really feels like that is all I have been doing with you.
"Now, what does that have to do with the fact that you have said this community is closed-minded?"
I said that, "The reason I thought this was important enough to write the paper about, wasn't just because I love Brayden and think the world of her. I also believe that this story symbolizes Wenatchee's view of of the youth in this town."
Is this the statement you are talking about?
"Really, Jeremy? Even when I provide the quotes? "
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you haven't provided quotes for many of the things you accuse me of saying, and the quotes you use are usually misinterpreted.
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"Dislike WHAT, Jeremy? You have introduced a number of subjects in your post. Instead of being specific, by including a subject in your sentence, you leave me guessing about what it is you are saying that I dislike."
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don't play dumb.
February 2, 2010 at 2:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I am back tracking right now trying to find where I said things you are accusing me of, and where you said that you were ok with people being different or having strange haircuts. if the following seems to skip around, then you now know why. I was sick for a few weeks and now feel better and more equipped to reply.
"I never insulted your friend." - the school did insult her, not everything I say in here is about you.
the link you posted much earlier shows chelan county not the city of wenatchee, or east wenatchee specifically. Mine was based on city voting and not county.
I'm offended that you said you tried to come at me as an adult right after you commented about you saying that you can't wait to for when brayden asks for her nipples pierced or a bone through her nose. Thats called skipping logic in the mental health profession.
anyway... I'm done searching... I don't want to go back and read anymore because it seems that all I am doing is bringing up things that I wasn't in the right frame of mind to discuss at the time... I will continue and comment on part two of your comment.
February 2, 2010 at 2:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
If I have somehow accused you of making a statement that someone else has made, then I am sorry, and that was not my intent. YOu have to remember that this has been me having a discussion with many different people, and not just you. Most of the people that have posted here seem to have disagreed with me and would appear to believe that the child should not be aloud to have weird hair at school. That was my main point, and that is what bothers me. I do not think it is wrong of me to live in a town of opposing views, because I think I can make a difference in someones life where someone might not have stood up for them. I have been doing it here for a long time, and feel that I have made progress, not in changing the social standards of this town, but in letting someone know that, that doesn't mean they are wrong for being different. I am not trying to compare myself to the man but Che Guevara was from Argentine, and the revolution was in Cuba.
February 2, 2010 at 2:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
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"If I said anything about Native Americans there is no likely way that it was pulled for me making a derogatory statement towards them."
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You said it, Jeremy. The Wenatchee World pulled your post containing the comment. This is even in your posting history on the Wenatchee World website: "This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement. January 26, 2010 at 12:24 a.m. ( permalink ) " As I said, this is the danger of the Wenatchee World over-reacting in the way that it does with regard to it's arbitrary method of pulling posts.
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"Is this the statement you are talking about?"
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Yes
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"you haven't provided quotes for many of the things you accuse me of saying, and the quotes you use are usually misinterpreted."
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Jeremy, how can you read my posts and make that statement? Everything that I have responded to, I have provided your quoted text ahead of my reply; just as I have done in this post. I haven't intended to misrepresent anything that that you have said to which I have responded. I have responded to what you have written. Prior to responding, I carefully read the words to which I am responding. I would suggest that your written words, if you think I am misrepresenting them, are providing an incomplete representation of what you meant to say. Since I don't know you, I can only interprete what you mean to say based on what is actually written; and vice-versa for you as well.
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"don't play dumb."
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Don't write incomplete sentences. I was serious. I have no idea just what it was that you were saying I dislike.
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February 2, 2010 at 1:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cmc (Chris Macey) says...
Great to see this debate is alive and well in the Valley, same as it was when I lived there about 20 years ago.
I ran into this issue a few times growing up as a somewhat rebellious/self-expressive type. I'm happy to report that despite the presumably altruistic intentions of all the people who told me I wouldn't get too far unless I fit the norm, I've led a very fulfilling and successful adult life. I work in an incredibly satisfying and engaging atmosphere where what's going on between the ears is everything, and what's growing on the top of the head or hanging around the neck is nothing.
I think it's too bad I felt I had to leave my home town to find that kind of atmosphere. I'll leave it up to y'all to decide for yourselves if you agree.
February 2, 2010 at 2:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
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"I am back tracking right now trying to find where I said things you are accusing me of, and where you said that you were ok with people being different or having strange haircuts."
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The first part of this thread had nothing to do with what 'I' thought was 'ok'. It had to do with assertions made that people had no 'right' to object to an individual's style choice (and this is not about Brayden, it is about the concept in general). I argued that people are required to be 'tolerant', but that there is no 'right' for anyone to be 'accepted' because of a 'different' style choice. I was arguing about specific definitions of 'tolerance' and 'acceptance'. I was also arguing constitutional rights of free expression which extends even to those who express disagreeable comments toward someone who is stylishly 'different'. Please note that I never stated that I believed expressing rude behavior was a good thing; only that people could do so if they choose to. I only expressed my personal preference as to MY behavior in the last few posts.
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" if the following seems to skip around, then you now know why. I was sick for a few weeks and now feel better and more equipped to reply."
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Glad to hear that your back on your feet.
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""I never insulted your friend." - the school did insult her, not everything I say in here is about you."
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Your reference was to me, not the school. Again, if you meant to specify the school then that needed to be made the subject of the comment that I responded to.
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"the link you posted much earlier shows chelan county not the city of wenatchee, or east wenatchee specifically. Mine was based on city voting and not county."
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Jeremy, you specifically referred to the COUNTY, and I quote, "The majority of this county voted for Obama, and it was nearly 50/50 when it came to Bush Vs. Kerry."
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Nonetheless, I contacted Stephanie Wilder at the Chelan County Auditor's Office. She emailed me the election results for the Wenatchee city precincts. The results are McCain: 6662 (52%); Obama: 5765 (46%)
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"I'm offended that you said you tried to come at me as an adult right after you commented about you saying that you can't wait to for when brayden asks for her nipples pierced or a bone through her nose. Thats called skipping logic in the mental health profession."
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Jeremy, I said this in a recent post and I'll say it again more loudly. DID..YOU..MISS..SEEING..THE..SMILEY EMOTICON..AFTER..THAT..SENTENCE? It was a joke, a bit of humor, an attempt to provide some levity. You don't get to rewrite my meaning, it was as clear as day.
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February 2, 2010 at 2:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
if I said county then it was my mistake... I am not sure but I had just seen that stat for the city, and that is what I should have said. I'm not sure if it was accurate now.
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I don't see the comment in which I referenced you SPECIFICALLY insulting my friend.
a smiley emoticon just seems condescending.
February 2, 2010 at 3:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"If I have somehow accused you of making a statement that someone else has made, then I am sorry, and that was not my intent."
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No worries, Jeremy. This is just a debate, not life or death. In real lif, we could probably sit down and have a nice chat, sipping on our preferences of beverage.
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"YOu have to remember that this has been me having a discussion with many different people, and not just you. Most of the people that have posted here seem to have disagreed with me and would appear to believe that the child should not be aloud to have weird hair at school.
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Could it be that many of those folks were not really arguing that Brayden's mohawk shouldn't be alllowed in school, but that the school had a right, under the law, to make such a rule? Forget about whether you or I would agree with such a rule, I think some were arguing the notion that the school could enforce such a rule.
"That was my main point, and that is what bothers me."
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I can understand that. When one's personal viewpoints are not embraced by others, it can feel as if the others are rejecting you personally. That was probably the biggest downside for posting a blog on this topic, you will not attract a discussion from only those people who see eye-to-eye with your concerns, values, or thoughts. Just try not to let it eat you up inside.
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"I do not think it is wrong of me to live in a town of opposing views, because I think I can make a difference in someones life where someone might not have stood up for them. I have been doing it here for a long time, and feel that I have made progress, not in changing the social standards of this town, but in letting someone know that, that doesn't mean they are wrong for being different."
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For those who read your blog, you may have accomplished part of what you have wanted to do.
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"I am not trying to compare myself to the man but Che Guevara was from Argentine, and the revolution was in Cuba."
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Che was a thug and a murderer. If he didn't like someone wearing a mohawk, he would have had no compunction about cutting their throat. You are a far better person, at this stage of your life, Jeremy, than that piece of sewage sludge could have ever hoped to be.
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February 2, 2010 at 3:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Chris,
I would be interested to know where you now call home, since it must be utopia, while us in Wenatchee are stuck in redneck hell.
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Personally, and this is simply my OPINION, but I find it encouraging that many of the posters on here are more likely to voice concern and side with the school district on this issue, than to be okay with anyone doing whatever they want in the name of being "creative". I'm encouraged because this tells me that conservative values are still alive and well in this area, and that is a major reason I choose to STAY here.
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First of all, I don't think anyone who has posted on here has condemned Brayden as a bad person. The simple act of disagreeing about what is and what is not acceptable does not make someone "closed minded" or a "bigot", or a member of the KKK, or make someone guilty of a hate crime.
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Second, there certainly are cities and regions in our country that are excellent places for whatever liberal outlet some people need to exhibit. As well as there are places that are more conservative, and may not believe that children need to express themselves at the possible expense of others' attention spans, just as they may not believe in other issues, such as gay marriage, gun control, etc.
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Again, my opinion, but I don't necessarily think either of these places are bad or wrong, but simply one majority's opinion compared to the other.
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This is the OP's problem with this issue as well, in that it seems from his posts that he believes that conservative values are some kind of "disease", that he is attempting to cure by trying to persuade people to take his liberal side. The root problem with that, however, is that the conservative people (the majority in this area) are not bad people for believing how they do.
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I would compare it to myself, a moderate conservative, trying to live in Seattle, or better yet, San Francisco. I'm fairly certain that, if I wrote a blog giving my opinion on why a gay couple I know shouldn't be allowed to get married, I would receive the same amount, or more, opposition than has been posted on here, just with the opposite slant. And there is nothing wrong with their opinions. And I wouldn't expect them to change, just because I think my opinion is the "right" way.
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So, therefore, I do think its wrong to condemn this town because the values that many people hold dear are considered "wrong" by your standards, and I congratulate you for taking the initiative to go to a place that fits in better with your own values.
February 2, 2010 at 3:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"if I said county then it was my mistake... I am not sure but I had just seen that stat for the city, and that is what I should have said. I'm not sure if it was accurate now."
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If you want to double-check the city result that I just gave in my last post, just give the Auditor's Office a call. The city precincts are the ones numbered in the 400s and 500s.
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"I don't see the comment in which I referenced you SPECIFICALLY insulting my friend.
a smiley emoticon just seems condescending."
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Naw, I never do condescension in an emoticon. I might do an eye-roll for a sarcasm. But a laugh or a smiley are exactly what I mean them to be.
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February 2, 2010 at 3:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I don't have time to respond to all of this but gator said, "
This is the OP's problem with this issue as well, in that it seems from his posts that he believes that conservative values are some kind of "disease", that he is attempting to cure by trying to persuade people to take his liberal side. The root problem with that, however, is that the conservative people (the majority in this area) are not bad people for believing how they do."
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that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying I live in a town where my view is the minority because I feel like I am one of the people that is strong enough to help build a community of people that stand up for each other and what we think is right. your argument is like telling people of another race, that are born here, that if they don't like the rules they should move out of the country. A country founded by immigrants trying to be tolerant of each other. A country where every citizen has a voice. This isn't really a matter of liberal vs. conservative here. This is about our right to be whoever we are, wherever we want, in America.
February 2, 2010 at 3:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Webfoot (Dennis Webb) says...
My two cents worth---There is a TIME and a PLACE for just about anything and everything--Just make sure you're in the RIGHT place and at the RIGHT time.
We can all agreed to disagree on this subject--there is no right or wrong, merely my "opinion" or "feelings" are in conflic with yours.
So, the bottom line is---See the first paragraph written above!!
February 2, 2010 at 5:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Jeremy,
See that is exactly what I was trying to say. Your comment about how you "stand up for each other and what we think is right" is exactly my point.
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To me, that sentence conveys that you are trying to stand up for what is right against some evil, bigoted, hate-filled entity with no motive other than to hold you and your "kind" back. But, to me, there is no need to "stand up for what is right", because your "right" is not truly right, it's just your opinion.
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Again, you're throwing out the race card, trying to make the people who oppose your position look like bigots, yet racism and "anti-mohawk-ism" are two completely different things. Why is it acceptable for you to make the comparison that someone who thinks the school district's view is right, is a racist? Yet if I compare a person who flaunts the established rules (the school district's, in this case) to a murderer (who also flaunts the rules - the law) - my analogy is suddenly a huge exaggeration?
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And you may be right, it may not be a matter of liberal vs. conservative, but again, the point I'm trying to make is that your idea of being whoever you want is fine, but you cannot stand up for what is right - because it is not right to other people. And those other people are not "wrong" or "bad people" because their position is different than yours.
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As Martin has tried to get across to you many times, "tolerance" and the "right to be whoever we are, wherever we want", are two very different things.
February 3, 2010 at 11:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
I don't think someone flaunting the rules by wearing a mohawk is like a murderer flaunting the rules, BTW. I was comparing the two because I don't think someone who doesn't think a kid should be allowed to have the mohawk is any more a racist, than the mohawk-wearer is a murderer. Hope that clears it up.
February 3, 2010 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chuck (C. Ulysses Farley) says...
It's only hair! And yet this story has garnered nearly 150 comments. What, in all honesty, does that say about this town?
February 4, 2010 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
For me, it says that it's winter, and work is boring this time of year. :-)
February 4, 2010 at 11:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
computerman (Mike Zucker) says...
wow... ive been following this feed since jeremy wrote it. i think it is funny how u guys got so off topic yet somehow managed to link it to what was origionally wrote about.
in my opinion i think that the wenatchee school district should be sued because they are legally unable to tell a student how to wear the hair unless it is in a dangerous manner ( unless maybe the mohawk has spikes in it?)
February 8, 2010 at 10:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
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"in my opinion i think that the wenatchee school district should be sued because they are legally unable to tell a student how to wear the hair unless it is in a dangerous manner "
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Actually, the Wenatchee School District is not in violation of any state or federal laws or regulations with regard to the hair issue.
February 9, 2010 at 9:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
gator
"See that is exactly what I was trying to say. Your comment about how you "stand up for each other and what we think is right" is exactly my point."
You are being defensive if that is your point. Everyone should stand up for what they believe is right, and should try to convince people to at least understand their side. I am all for personal freedom and I have repeated over and over that I don't believe anyone should worry about what someone else does in their personal life. The more we worry about how someone influences things simply by existing in an alternative lifestyle of any sore, the more influence you give that individual. My theory on this is because he becomes more vocal about it. YOu back a wolf in the corner and he will bite. I believe you should mind your own business when it comes to someones personal life, as long as they aren't stealing, murdering, raping etc. Or harming other people DIRECTLY! Stop making this a completely left and right thing. I have plenty of my own conservative views, but I don't want to impose on how anyone else lives their life.
Did I call you a racist? If I did I didn't mean to... But you are a bigot if you are judging someone on their appearance or class, just the same as you are by judging someone on the color of their skin. I know the old argument that you can cut your hair or change your clothing but you cant change the color of your skin... This is true in a sense, but that person would usually feel horrible pretending to be something they aren't. You wouldn't ask a person to dye their skin so they fit in, and to me it is the same thing.
February 10, 2010 at 5:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I know the argument that "right is relative".
"right" is Subjective, but everyone knows that, "right" is intrinsic to culture, and we know the difference between right and wrong. We are born with that, and we don't need to be told.
February 10, 2010 at 5:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Julee (Juli Anderson) says...
I don't see what the big hooplah is about this. Sure she's a little young, but hair grows back. As long as she's doing good in school and not being delinquent, what's the problem? When I was in highschool, I chose to dye my hair hot pink and dress a "little differently" from the rest (I was the only one w/different hair color then-in Prosser). I didn't do drugs, drink, smoke, or go to parties. On the other hand, several of the so-called straight-laced kids that were in sports and attended the same Catholic church (no I'm not knocking Catholics, just stating a fact) were the ones I heard stories about going to big parties after games and the drinking, drugs, and sex that took place there. I'm not saying I was perfect, but trying to show that just because someone chooses to look different than the "norm" doesn't mean he/she is going to turn out messed up and defiant. I have a wonderful job (w/the state no less) and a terrific family (I am 41 btw). I hope that this young girl doesn't let the "normal" people break her. Who knows, she may be the one who puts Wenatchee on the map, so to speak; as long as she doesn't get chased away when she graduates. You go girl (& mom)!!! :)
February 11, 2010 at 11:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
"I don't see what the big hooplah is about this"
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Juli, much of what you bring up has already been discussed. I, for one, don't really feel like revisiting this whole debate all over again.
February 11, 2010 at 12:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Juli,
As stated MANY times before on this thread, the point isn't whether the little girl should be condemned for having a mohawk. I don't think anyone is saying that. The debate is whether or not the school district should be allowed to decide what is or isn't acceptable in their schools, and whether they were in the right, or not, to decide not to allow her hairstyle in school.
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And, after 156 posts, neither side has made any progress whatsoever in getting their point home. :-)
February 11, 2010 at 3:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MGreedy (Monica Greedy) says...
To me the issue seems to be one of fairness...girls don't wear jeans, girls don't vote, girls don't have jobs, girls don't play hockey or football, girls don't get mohawks...WELL THEY DO NOW!
February 12, 2010 at 11:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bermans (Vernon Cox) says...
I can remember when my sister got sent home from Mission View school for wearing her white band pants to school.
Yes the pants where OK to wear for band but she couldn't wear them for class. Well needless to say when mom went to the school that rule was changed. Sometimes the rules don't make any scene and this is one of them so cut it off or let it grow just go to school and be yourself.
February 13, 2010 at 10:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I truly appreciate all the attention this blog has received and I hope that the on I have in the works will be equally as controversial. I just have to do a little more research as I have been away for a few days and have to recollect my notes and get them all placed correctly.
February 14, 2010 at 9:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Me (Iam Right) says...
Mav said, "The bottom line is that we are a nation of laws..."
Which is exactly why this should be handled in a courtroom, not a school board meeting or PTA conference. Nothing will ever get done to prevent future little girls from being unfairly discriminated against in a PTA meeting. Take it to court, hopefully the Supreme Court (so that the decision is implemented nationwide) and all little girls will be protected in the future.
I can't believe no one's seen the real issue here. The problem isn't with the little girls haircut, it's with the kid's reaction to it. Why protect these kid's "right" to tease? Why blame the victim of the teasing instead of the bullies that tease? It's just like the extreme right conservative republicans on this board to stand up for the bullies and not the victim. The children (and adults) could have learned a great lesson here--that it's not EVER appropriate to tease a person, regardless of the circumstances. The conservatives on this board want to maintain the status quo, where bullies have every right to continue bullying their victims. And why do you suppose that might be? You figure it out.
If I was the teacher, I would have stood up and said, "Brayden got a haircut. If anyone would like to tease her about it, now or in the future, they may as well hall their little tush down to the office right now to begin their punishment. Children, teasing is not allowed, at any time, at any place, regardless of the circumstances, and it will be addressed and punished each and every time it occurs, without fail. Does anyone have any questions?" If the teacher would have said that, we wouldn't be discussing this now. It would have been over and done with long ago.
February 14, 2010 at 10:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Iam Right said,
"If I was the teacher, I would have stood up and said, "Brayden got a haircut. If anyone would like to tease her about it, now or in the future, they may as well hall their little tush down to the office right now to begin their punishment. Children, teasing is not allowed, at any time, at any place, regardless of the circumstances, and it will be addressed and punished each and every time it occurs, without fail. Does anyone have any questions?" If the teacher would have said that, we wouldn't be discussing this now. It would have been over and done with long ago."
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LOL!!! You don't seriously think that will work, do you? I don't know about you, but I know I did EVERYTHING my teachers wanted me to...
February 15, 2010 at 8:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Me (Iam Right) says...
J Bone says,
"LOL!!! You don't seriously think that will work, do you? I don't know about you, but I know I did EVERYTHING my teachers wanted me to.."
Yeah, you're right, it probably won't work, which is why we should go on letting bullies torment their victims. Typical republican.
February 15, 2010 at 1:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Iam Right, how do you know I'm a Republican? I am not, BTW (not that it matters) - just conservative on some issues. And me being a republican or not has nothing to do with my response to your naive comment about teachers having power to stop kids from "bullying".
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I don't agree with Jeremy's point of view, but at least he has support for his ideals.
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I agree, bullying needs to stop, but you do not make a good argument. I tried to challenge your idea, and, instead of supporting your argument - like suggesting that the school enact greater punishment, or more oversight for bullies - you decided to call me names.
February 15, 2010 at 4:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JeremyLogan (Jeremy Logan) says...
I Don't think anyone was bullying her. From what I know most of the kids just thought it was cool. In my not always so humble opinion the teacher and school that told her that it was inappropriate are themselves bullies though.
February 15, 2010 at 7:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eastwaimport (Eastern Washingon Import) says...
In my personal opinion, a mohawk for an 8 year old girl isn't probably appropriate, even if she wants it. Should she or her mother be punished or scolded for something that didn't harm her or anybody else? No.
When it comes down to it, it's just hair. And it's Brayden's hair and her mother's right to cut it however she wants it to be whether others agree or not.
Children might bully her. There could be a possibility, just by her being different, that they will call her names or tease her whether the teacher is around or not. But that teasing and bullying could be caused also by the way she tied her shoes that day.
Her mother, in allowing the haircut, also took that risk that she might be bullied because it's not up to us or anybody else how those children will react, but the after math is obviously something that adults could handle.
February 19, 2010 at 1:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bermans (Vernon Cox) says...
Braydens hair has grow back give it a brake and get a life. Brayden if you want to let it grow and die it I will pay for it. Any color any type hair cut. Just be your self and don't let anyone tell you how to run your life just dont break the law.The Wenatchee World can get ahold of me to pay for your new hair color.
February 22, 2010 at 8:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
matthew (matthew smith) says...
It's just hair, i had green and blue hair when i went to high school here in Wenatchee. That was OK in 1995 but when a younger child goes to school in 2009 with a mohawk it's a problem. Come on it's just hair.
And Martin, lighten up man. Lifes to short for you to worry about an 8 year old girls hair style in Wenatchee.
February 24, 2010 at 6:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
Matthew, please point out where I am worried 'about an 8 year old girls hair style in Wenatchee.'
February 24, 2010 at 10:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sherz240 (Sherry Knight) says...
Geez Martin. Where were you when they were voting on the baggy saggy pants in school? Or wearing pajamas and slippers. There needs to be a dress code, definitely. But, hair is hair. That is a personal preference.
February 25, 2010 at 12:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Martin (Martin Reginald) says...
Sherry, which of my posts are you referring to? Please show me where I have taken a position, one way or the other, on the kid's hair.
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As to baggy pants or pajamas, one only responds to the topic at hand, not to the entire universe of metaphysical possibilities. Start a blog on baggy pants or pajamas and perhaps I'll respond. But likely not.
February 25, 2010 at 2:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JustaMom (Justa Mom) says...
Wow 2 months! Way to strike up a conversation!
Here's my 2 cents....
I'm a mother of 2 teenage girls(17 & 15) and 1 preteen boy(12).
My oldest has been dying her hair since she was 14, the younger one since she was 13 and the boy just this last summer.
My oldest is naturally blonde, but now a days is a reddish brown color. Fairly natural color, no big deal.
My youngest girl... Oh she's got long hair on the top and sides thats PURPLE and its short and spikey and BLACK in the back.
My son...yea...he has a Bright Blue Mohawk.
and you know what? I don't care. Its just hair for crying out loud!
If the color/style of my teenagers hair is all I have to worry about then I'd say I have it pretty darn good! There are so many other really bad things they could be into/doing.
Why do we have to pick on the kids over EVERYTHING? Hasn't anyone heard the saying "Pick and Choose your Battles"?
However, you will also find that my kids are respectful, kind and courteous to EVERYONE.
♥
February 25, 2010 at 10:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
threelittleangels (Wenatchee Mom) says...
Actually, the problem is Lewis and Clark Elementary. Their staff is very quick to make negative judgements and jump to conclusions without any objective evidence. I was so hurt by the way that they treated my child and the way that the district handled things that I put my kids in private school. How sad that I feel that I cannot trust my home district. My child went from "the bad kid" to getting student of the month 3 times now.
February 26, 2010 at 6:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Hey guys,
This is somewhat off-subject, but, as a pro-WSD advocate in this thread, I just heard a second-hand story from a parent at Sunnyslope elementary. And it may make me take the anti-WSD side.
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Anyway, the story is that this parent's child went over the line in some kind of "step" system the schools have, which apparently REQUIRES the parent to immediately come to the school to discuss the problem with the teachers and the student. The parent was (understandably) upset at having to be "strongly" encouraged to leave work to tend to the problem, and just wanted to take her child back to her work to watch her, rather than jump through the schools hoops, which would eat up more lost work time. According to this parent, however, that course of action was not allowed, as the parent has to first discuss the problem with the teacher, and then with her child. When this parent protested and asked to simply take her child home for the day, the principal of Sunnyslope allegedly told her "this is my school and you don't tell me how we do things".
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I am sure this was a semi-biased recount, but, if that is the way the schools are run around here, I will have to think about siding with Jeremy. How can a parent be denied removing their child from the school for a day? Who does the principal think he is telling a parent that it is "his school"? I believe someone needs to remind this guy that a public school is owned by US, the taxpayers, and is not "his school", no matter how big his ego may be.
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If Brayden's haircut was handled similarly, then I can see what the whole fuss was about...
February 26, 2010 at 8:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
threelittleangels (Wenatchee Mom) says...
Yes, when a child gets a step 4, parents are expected to drop what they are doing and come in for a conference. I know that for one family, it even got as far as a CPS referral, which of course was not founded, but caused a lot of emotional hurt to two loving parents.
February 26, 2010 at 3:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Gator (J Bone) says...
Maybe I should take back many of the comments I have made on this thread, if it really is the case that the WSD is attempting to overstep their bounds. It is PUBLIC school, after all.
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I am humble enough to try to understand the other point of view - especially if Brayden's "scenario" was dealt with in a similar way.
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It has never yet come up for my kid, but I know I will not be able to rush to the school with my job's responsibilities, and my wife may not either - does that make us bad parents?
February 26, 2010 at 4:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
timrice (tim rice) says...
in the early 80's,i was told i couldn't have an earring in my ear at school.until the school was threatened with a lawsuit to make all the girls take theirs out too.problem was soon gone
February 28, 2010 at 11:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )