A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
Blog: Science (Mostly Biology) Blog
April 12, 2011
Here are just some of the intermediate fossils showing that we share a common ancestors with apes like chimpanzees ("A"). Note that we didn't "come from" chimpanzees, just that we share a common ancestor. The fossil skulls shown here show the set of intermediate species between that ape-like ancestor and modern humans. So let's watch Tim and our other creationist friends try to deal with the actual evidence....
A - Chimpanzee; B, C - Australopithecus africanus; D, E- Homo habilis; F, G, H, I - Homo erectus; J, K, L, M - Homo sapiens neanderthalensis; N - Homo sapiens sapiens
UPDATE: These illustrations should help understand "Lucy" as an intermediate. "She" shares traits with apes and with modern, upright walking humans. These figures are taken from McHenry, HM (1994) Tempo and mode in human evolution. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 91:6780-6786. Available free here: http://www.pnas.org/content/91/15/6780.full.pdf
Note, in this paper you can also find cranial capacity measurements for these and assorted other fossils of varying age.
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Michael 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
No more bogus arguments from philosophy. Time to deal with the actual evidence - here's just a small bit of the mountain of evidence just dealing with hominids - skulls only for now. Plus, you need a break from Christopher Scott Wilson and the killed cougar.
JustanObserver 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
Are you familiar with this study, Michael? The info you posted above suggests that "Lucy" was yet another chink in the chain. That doesn't appear to be the case:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1871826/?tool=pmcentrez
Michael 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
I haven't read that paper. But a species need not be a direct ancestor to be intermediate. Neither Australopithecus robustus nor A. boisei are thought to be direct ancestors either. Branches in the tree only.
Michael 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
I also never said it was a direct chain. I admit the photo can be misleading, but it's a really nice photo. To further illustrate, you and your uncle share a common ancestor (your grandparent). Your uncle is not a direct ancestor, however. But he probably has at least some intermediate traits between you and your grandparent. Note this is intended as an illustration and NOT as a "proof."
Tim 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
If it's not "proof" then it's not fact. The skeletons are facts obviously, but your assumptions are not. To say those are intermediates, is wrong. You only have one end of the scale. You can't pretend that because you have two different skulls that one preceded the other. Modern man has all shapes of skulls. Prominent brow and square jaws, these things run in ethnic groups. There could have been an ape that became extinct in the last four thousand years.
I'm saying your skull collection is no evidence for evolution. Show me something else.
Tim 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
I personally like "D" with the blue light but "M" looks happy. "J" looks like a Freddy Kruger mask and "N" is a classic and must have posed for the Halloween door decorations. "L" looks like a girl my brother dated.
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
What exactly do these show? You say we are not descendants of chimps then claim the other similar fossils are intermediate; intermediate of what?
Didn't I hear once that human DNA was closer to the banana than the chimp?
Nice try Michael, but no evidence here. What else you got?
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
"Didn't I hear once that human DNA was closer to the banana than the chimp?"
Tim, you've heard, and apparently believe, many, many things that are demonstrably and categorically wrong, and this is just one of those things. You're not aware that humans and chimps are not only both mammals but also both Hominidae? The last common ancestor of humans and chimps was 5 million years ago, but the last common ancestor of plants and animals was 1.6 billion years ago. Believing that humans are taxonomically closer to bananas than chimpanzees utterly transcends ordinary ignorance and brings a new low to the utter lack of common sense that a human being can exhibit. If you believe it, you're bananas!
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-closely-related-are-h
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/0520_030520_chimpanzees.html
"intermediate of what?"
Intermediate of the common ancestor of both chimps and us, and present day humans. How could you possibly not get this? Forgive me if I'm misreading you, but it seems like you're being purposely ignorant here, and just acting like you don't get it. Which is kind of troll-like, if you think about it.
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
"Intermediate of the common ancestor of both chimps and us, and present day humans."
"chimps and us, and present day humans"? You may fall somewhere between chimps and present day humans but don't drag me down with you!!
Michael points to Chimps and Humans and some mysterious ancestor and then claims these other skeletons are the links, that is not science.
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
Another reason you would do poorly in college is your reading comprehension level, which I estimate at about the 3rd grade level, if that. Please show me where I stated that I fall somewhere between chimps and modern day humans.
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
3rd grade level is all it takes to read your thoughts. I do, however, have an AA. Nothing amazing I know just thought I'd clear that up.
I quoted you when I made that comment in jest. You said "...chimps and us, and present day humans" Do you see it yet? Was it a Freudian slip? Chimps, Modern man, and US in between? Not me, I said!
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
"So let's watch Tim and our other creationist friends try to deal with the actual evidence...."
Predictably by utterly ignoring any evidence you bring up... At least it wasn't accompanied by the usual irrelevant bible verse...
And you gotta love Tim's science-by-"didn't I hear once" philosophy.... I'd love to see Tim Lamb's Theory of Banana/Human Relativity undergo peer review. That would be humorous.
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
"Predictably by utterly ignoring any evidence you bring up... At least it wasn't accompanied by the usual irrelevant bible verse... "
I ignored nothing which if you read my comments was obvious. I just didn't see any evidence!
Oh, and sense you noticed...If you miss the relevance it's because it's over a third grade reading level! ;p
Unbelief and Its Consequences Romans 1: 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Tim 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
The percentage you share with a banana is only about fifty percent so you are only half fruity "ME".;p
This is a perfect example of why fossil evidence is so over blown. The take a bunch of skulls and try to arrange them in some order that seems to go from less evolved to more evolved, then they date them using several different means and taking the number they like, and claim this is a few rungs of a long ladder. Well, unless you got a whole ladder you are just guessing and going on faith.
Here is applied evolutionary theory. My boat and my car and my mothers riding lawn mower each have a seat, steering wheel, gages, wiring, a battery, lights, and a few other lessor commonalities. Did they all evolve from a common ancestor? Or is it just that the designer stuck with something that worked?
Michael, in his attempt to control the thought process proclaimed philosophical thought on the matter bogus. Seems to me we reach an end to the facts and all we have left is reason and philosophy. True facts on evolution and our beginnings are few, from there we must reason and apply faith.
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
"The percentage you share with a banana is only about fifty percent so you are only half fruity "ME".;p"
From the NatGeo article I posted earlier that you didn't bother to read: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/0520_030520_chimpanzees.html
"The results suggested that within important sequence stretches of these functionally significant genes, humans and chimps share 99.4 percent identity."
I'm no scientist nor mathematician, but I'm pretty sure that 99.4 is closer to 100 than 50. I still don't understand how you could possibly get that confused. So, do you still believe that bananas are more closely related to humans than chimps?
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
"I'm no scientist nor mathematician, but I'm pretty sure that 99.4 is closer to 100 than 50." Excellant, I'll give you a c+!
For being 99.4% alike I don't really feel much akin to the chimp, but you must, since you brag about it!
"So, do you still believe that bananas are more closely related to humans than chimps? "
Never said that. Why do you lie?
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
"So, do you still believe that bananas are more closely related to humans than chimps? "
You're right. I mistyped. I meant to say, "Do you still believe that humans are more closely related to bananas than to chimps?"
Michael 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
"Seems to me we reach an end to the facts..."
You haven't even reached the beginning of the facts. If those are not intermediate between apes and humans, what are they?
Tim 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
They are skulls; remains of dead things. No evidence of their origin is implied by their being. Tell me, did you use the same dating method on all of them? Or was one dated by the earth layer it was found in and the next dated because it had a big brow? The only reason you can find so many skulls is that the flood buried them quickly and preserved them by the thousands.
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
So, Tim, since neanderthals were walking the earth at the same time as humans, why didn't they get on the boat with Noah? Since they aren't humans, they would be animals, right? Isn't it strange that the bible ignores a creature that so closely resembles man? Shouldn't there have been a commandment, "thou shalt not mate with neanderthals" or some such proclamation? I don't bring that up to be crude but I didn't I hear scientists think there was some of that activity?
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
God works in mysterious ways that just happen to be consistent with there being no god at all.
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
Yep, pretty darn mysterious, ain't it?
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
Why not go back further? Consider Carl Sagan's seminole 1977 tome "Dragons of Eden" and the reptilian ties to the human brain.
Granted, we most likely have common ancestor with the chimps, but to go back further, we've got common ground in reptiles as well.
Triune brain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
"Using such reasoning, it has been estimated that the last common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees (with whom we share 99 percent of our genes) lived five million years ago. Going back a little farther, the Hominidae clade is 13 million years old. If we continue farther back in time, we find that placental mammals are between 60 and 80 million years old and that the oldest four-limbed animal, or tetrapod, lived between 300 and 350 million years ago and the earliest chordates (animals with a notochord) appeared about 990 million years ago. Humans belong to each of these successively broader groups."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-closely-related-are-h
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
""Using such reasoning..." NO NO NO! Michael said no reasoning allowed!
Gator 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
Maybe (okay, probably) I'm just an idiot, but I have never understood the resistance to evolution by Christians. I consider myself a Christian, although I'm not really a practicing Christian - and I don't see why evolution AND the existence of God can't both be true. Sure, evolution dismisses the story of Adam and Eve, but disproving a small part of the Bible doesn't disprove a plane of existence that we don't understand. And it doesn't automatically mean that there has to be either "God" or "no God". Does it?
I guess, to me, I see the evidence and proof of evolution, but that doesn't mean some higher being isn't "pushing" things in the right direction. Just a thought.
JohnDoe 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
If there is a God pushing evolution, I wish he'd stop with some of it. We really didn't need the AIDS virus or resistant strains of bacteria.
1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
Maybe that's god's mysterious way of telling us that we can stop being quite so fruitful and multiplying so much.
Gator 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
I agree. Maybe saying "pushing things in the RIGHT direction", was a bad choice of words. Some things definitely don't seem to be evolving in the right direction. But, still, my point was supposed to be that evolution and God aren't mutually exclusive, IMO.
Michael 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
Deal with the data, Tim. Those fossils still exist regardless of your attempts at denial. Give us your brilliant interpretation. I'm not going down any more pathetic theological roads with you until you deal with the data.
Tim 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
I should have read these questions before I commented above. I copy and paste my answers from earlier:
If it's not "proof" then it's not fact. The skeletons are facts obviously, but your assumptions are not. To say those are intermediates, is wrong. You only have one end of the scale. You can't pretend that because you have two different skulls that one preceded the other. Modern man has all shapes of skulls. Prominent brow and square jaws, these things run in ethnic groups. There could have been an ape that became extinct in the last four thousand years.
I'm saying your skull collection is no evidence for evolution. Show me something else.
freethinker 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
Here is Dr Kenneth Miller, lecturing on I.D. and evolution. He understands and believes the evidence of evolution and he is also a Christian. It can be done. I''m not sure how a smart guy like him rationalizes the bronze age mythology - but apparently it is possible.
Michael 1 year, 1 month ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
After thinking about it, I want to try to keep Tim from more slippery claims and non sequitur "counterarguments" though I realize he'll probably continue to ignore the fossil specimens. Tim, please describe each fossil, what measurements you would use to quantify differences and/or similarities, and what each specimen represents relative to apes and humans. As listed A-N below:
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
F.
G.
H.
I.
J.
K.
L.
M.
N.
Michael 1 year ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
Updated this to include some more reference material. Enjoy!
francis 10 months, 3 weeks ago
A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words: Human Evolution
DNA is where the answers are.I was watching KSPS World and they had a special on this.Evidently we came from the same two parents.And black and white people were @ one time from the same familly as all other races.Down two one woman and one man.Go figure.... BUT there is profs (national geographic articles)that there could never have been any connection to any monkey or Neanderthal in history, That there would have been prof in the DNA.They believe there was sex but no baby could be produced or the prof would be in the DNA they found in north Germany in a cave were they found both human and Neanderthal living together in heard and they were lucky to find fresh DNA in some bones to test. .
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